Episode 13 - Part 5 of "Things I used to know - Debunking Christian Myths".

Tim 00:00:22 Welcome back guys. Ajai, Mark, and Tim here. Welcome to the unveiling podcast. We are still working on our series of Things I used to know or debunking Christian myths. This is gonna be the fifth and fifth episode in that series and today we're gonna start off by talking about one that usually comes up when you're getting a, a sermon on giving or stewardship and that is you gotta give more to get more. And I don't believe that I believe that in the way I used to anymore. So that'll be our first one today. Mark, why don't you take it from there? Mark 00:01:00 Sure. I'll just say that I've seen this one in so many different churches having worked for churches and gone to churches most of my life. When it comes up to that week, when the pastor's gonna start his, sermon series on giving, which I'll just tell you from having worked with pastors, they dread it. They don't want to teach on giving. They don't like it, they don't like putting pressure on their congregations and perhaps that's where this one has its roots and that they're trying to find a way to make giving seem very, oh, what's the word advantageous to the person giving. What I don't like about that just in the general sound of it is it's not appealing to our noble side; it's appealing to greed. Basically, if you ask me, it's like, you know what? You give more, you're gonna get more, so if you want a lot of money, you better give a lot of money that doesn't exactly elevate giving into the, in, into, in the light of the gospel. It's not about generosity. It's not about Thanksgiving and having grateful hearts for all that God has done for us and continues to do, but it's just the matter of sheer economics. If you, and, and, and to some extent, it's at the base of the prosperity gospel, it's a work that you do. I'm going to give until it hurts. You've heard that saying before, right? <laugh> Tim 00:02:40 Absolutely. Mark 00:02:42 So I'll let you take it from there. Ajai, let someone else get some, Ajai 00:02:46 Yeah. You know, thinking about, where this comes from, right? You know, generally know why this is so prevalent. This kind of teaching is, you know, I've heard a couple of verses several times that are used to basically encourage people to give. The first one is from Malachi three 10, actually starting from 3:8 “Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you ask, how do we rob you? In tithes and offerings. You are cursed with the curse, yet you, the whole nation are still robbing me. Bring the full tithe into the storehouse so that there may be food in my house. Test me in says the Lord of Hosts. See if I will not open the windows of heaven and pour out for you the blessing without measure”. So this is a first scripture I've seen, used several times and a similar scripture in Luke, also Luke 6:38, “give it'll be given to you a good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over will be poured into your lap for, with the measure you use, it'll be measured to you”. So, you know, we can definitely dig into both of these and actually explain what they mean, but for now I think for today's podcast, it suffice us to say that, you know, we've been talking several times or almost all the time, right, so we talk, we have been talking about the law and grace or whether you approach God based on the law or whether you approach God based on grace, there are no two ways about it. And if you mix law in grace, you know, it becomes very confusing. Even in this, the two passages that we talked about in the old covenant passage, the tides and offerings are specifically under the old covenant, and they are not obeying the old, old covenant and, and in that context, the Lord is speaking, right. You know, you are robbing me and you're not keeping the covenant and if you keep the covenant right under the old covenant, he will also get the blessings of the old covenant. Again, so, but you know, one of the things that we always talk about is, we, I think Mark, you said this several times, we filter everything through the cross, right, in order to understand, you know, what we are speaking is in alignment with the gospel, we filter everything through the cross. So Romans 8:32 says “if He who did not spare His own Son, but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also along with Him, graciously, give us all things”. In another version it says, you know, “how shall He not also freely give us all things”. So is Lord giving us things freely or we have to give him. So what people are teaching, if you give God, He will give you in that we are first giving God, and in exchange we are getting something from God. So that's not free anymore, right? We are actually purchasing stuff from God orgiving God money for interest. It's like, you know, you are giving God some money and is holding and giving it back to you with interest. You know, that's basically, it's not at all in alignment with grace. Whereas in grace, it says, you know, if it is by grace, it is no longer by works otherwise grace is no longer grace. So again, I think we have to go back and filter everything through the cross and compare everything against the finished work of Lord Jesus Christ and see if it aligns with it or not, no matter what we teach, if it conflicts or if it contradicts the finished work of Lord Jesus Christ, right? We always err on the side of the cross, not on the other side. And we also talked about it several times. This is also one of those things, right? It is again, minimizing what the Lord Jesus Christ did for us because of Lord Jesus Christ, because of his finished work, God is able to abundantly bless us and we don't have to give God to get money from God. Mark 00:06:57 So you're saying that God's not an investment banker, that this is not inside trader information, Ajai 00:07:04 Not at all. Mark 00:07:06 You know, Ajai, I had that exact same scripture loaded up that you just brought up. “He, who did not spare His own Son, but along with Him graciously gave us”, oh boy, I just butchered it. He who did not spare His own Son, but along with Him, gave us all things. How will he not gr I butchered it again? Ajai 00:07:29 “How will He not also along with Him graciously, give us all things”. Mark 00:07:33 There you go. I had that one memorized. But so it just, the, the question here, this give more to get more, just has the character of God wrong. You know that scripture tells us that, well, many scriptures tell us that when God gave us His son was when we were His enemies. We were dead in transgression without hope and without God in the world. In other words, when we were at our worst, God gave us His best. There was nothing more costly than the life of his Son, nothing more valuable to Him than Jesus and yet, while we were at our worst, He gave Him to us And the scriptures saying if he would do for that for us, give us his best when we're at our worst, now that we are his children, that we've put our faith in Christ, that we have been declared the righteousness of God, we're new creations and, you know, the list goes on of all the great things we have as his children. Do we really think that we need to give him more? He's already given us just lavished upon us, every good and perfect gift. So, so that's what I really think is at the core of what's wrong with that teaching beside it being wrong, just in general, it's not some kind of formula is that we're just completely underestimating God's love for us and what Christ did on the cross, as you mentioned, Ajai. Tim 00:09:05 I think my biggest problem with this particular idea is the fact that it appears that we have the ability to manipulate God to what we want. And if my God is that easily manipulated, He's, He's just not God. You know, it's not a formula, it's not a spell, it's not a, you know, it's, it's not a contract, it's, you know, the, this, the whole giving and getting thing. When we were saved, like you said, we got all the gifts all there, right up front we don't have to ask for anything. We're now the children of a king. We're not beggars. So, to then say, yes, but in this one case you have to do this so that He will. Well, no, He He's God, He can choose to do what He wants, when He wants, where He wants, how He wants. Mark 00:09:56 Yeah, absolutely, and if the thing is, if you're gonna let this kind of thinking, grab you, then you've gotta work that out logically that if giving more money brings you greater fi financial blessing will then fill in the blank. If I read more scripture than God's going to give me more X, if I, serve more in church, if I'm in a small group, if I do this, if I do that, if I do that, then God's gonna give me greater blessing. It's just turns into just pure law. Pure works. Ajai 00:10:33 Yeah. We also talk about logic and scriptures, you know, using the lo same logic Mark. Like what do we give God if you want to get more health, right? Do we give him, you know, it becomes absurd. What do we give God to get more health? In fact, the only thing we can give is sickness in exchange for His health and Bible clearly says, you know, by His power, you know, by His power, we are made rich, right? In Philippines it says, or one of the epistles, so the way (the) cross works is right, you know, it's a great exchange. I think we have talked about it before as well. He takes our sin and gives us His righteousness, right? He takes our sickness, and He gives us His health. He takes our fears, and He gives us His peace and He takes our sadness and gives us His joy. And he takes us our poverty and gives us His riches. So, God is blessing us. Like, you know, he will supplies us, all our needs, according to his riches in Christ Jesus, not according to our giving that Bible is clear. So, you already pointed out Mark it's interesting given grace preachers, in every aspect, they say that, you know, God will give everything freely, but somehow when it comes to milli money, they say that, you know, you first have to give and that plainly contradicts the gospel Mark 00:12:01 Absolutely. At its very core. Tim 00:12:06 So shall we move on to the next topic? Alright, this one is, another one that gets taught somehow and that is while any sin you commit, isn't good, if you commit the same sin over and over, or have a pattern of sin, that's worse. And somehow they teach this right next to the, any sin you commit, you know, breaks your relationship with God. So, it already sounds suspect from the front, any, so how is it that one sin that you commit randomly versus a sin that you repeat can be better or worse than each other? Mark 00:12:47 Well, once again, logic comes or lack thereof, comes right into this one. First of all, all sin. I, I wanna say all, but most of us most sin is according to a pattern because we all have our own different weaknesses and temptations. What causes Tim to stumble doesn't cause me to stumble, so there's no pattern of that particular sin. But I've got my own stuff that comes from a weakness, it could be a broken part in, in me, it could be something that I've been heard in the past that predisposes me to fall. I mean, if we had the ability to go into each person's life and look at every sin they ever committed, you would find patterns is, is the point that I'm making here. We all sin, according to our weaknesses, which creates a pattern. To think that somehow my random one off sins are less in need of redemption and forgiveness in the blood of Christ, than if I have a pattern, in fact, my patterns are even more in need. Ajai. Ajai 00:14:02 Yeah. You know, in fact, again, I think, what's behind this also is a law mentality trying to obtain God's righteousness by keeping the law. Right. So, what they have been doing here is, bringing down the standard of God, right? So, they, what they're saying is, okay, if you, have a pattern of sin, you know, that is wrong but if you sin once in a while, it's okay. But the Bible is clear in James it says, “if you keep the law at all points and break on one point, you know, you're still breaking the whole law”. So before God and Christ, whether you have a pattern of sins or whether you sin once you are equally a sinner and the punishment and the consequence, the wages of your sin is still death. So, whether you're committing a pattern of sins or whether you are just committing sins, once in a while, you still need Christ as much both in both cases. And on the flip side is, once you have come to know the Lord Jesus Christ, and you have received his righteousness and you have received his life, Lord is going to give, is able to give you victory over both of them, right, He's helping you with both the pattern of sin as well as just a random sin. So I think here what's happening is again, they're disregarding the cross and they're trying to come up with a, system of their own to please God. And their system is “okay if you, if you sin now and then, God will forgive you and somehow you can escape God’s judgment, but if you sin as a pattern, then you know, there's no escape”. I think that's the kind of mentality here. Mark 00:16:07 Well, the scripture that says, the lawless acts and sins, I will remember no more. I don't remember then God putting in, except if it's in a pattern. Ajai 00:16:19 Yeah, exactly, exactly. Mark 00:16:21 I guess he has amnesia to random sin, but if the pattern he's got a real good memory on patterns, right? That's what they're trying to put forth. Tim 00:16:29 <laugh> This feels like man, trying to add something because you know, you can look at somebody and go, well, you're doing this over and over and over again and that's bad. While I only do things occasionally and [yeah], you know, by accident, so I'm better than you. [Yeah]. No, you're not. One sin is enough to, to, to condemn you in their, you know, in the, in the afterlife, unless you have Jesus. [Yeah] and you're covered by that righteousness. So the idea that I can, and it really feels very physical worldly that I can look at others and go, oh, you know, they have a problem with lying, I don't lie. But then again, I'm also so over here, having affairs. Yeah. You know, it's the log in (spoken over) but only Mark 00:17:16 Once so that it's not a pattern, Tim, and then you're over Tim 00:17:19 <laugh> Ajai 00:17:19 Right. Yeah. Yeah. We have, done this in the past as well. I think even here, I think it helps if it differentiate unbelievers and believers. So, in the unbelieving world, those who do not know Christ, whether you commit random sins or whether you commit, pattern of sins, right, you're still perishing because you do not have Christ. In the believing world, right, once you come to Lord Jesus Christ, whether you have a pattern of sin where you're struggling with a pattern of sin or whether you are committing sins, randomly, right, no matter none of those sins will condemn you and you will never perish. And the good news is Lord is able to help us, whether we are struggling with a pattern of sin or whether, you know, so-called random sins, doesn't matter. On this side of life, right, all our sins are forgiven and Lord is not remembering any of our sins, whether it's pattern or random. And even the better news is the Bible says that, you know, we are not under the dominion of sin. So Lord is definitely able to help us, no matter whether we have pattern of sins or random sins. And Lord is not condemning us whether we have pattern of sins or random sins. Mark 00:18:37 And at the very core, one of the problems I have with this is that it's putting our focus on our sin instead of on our savior. And our saviors the only hope, only hope we ever have of by his spirit, those sins over time, you know, no longer being patterns. And it also begs another question that is how many times do I have to do that same sin before it becomes a pattern? It's just, it's very illogical and nonsensical. If I do it three times, is that now a pattern? And three times in what time, period, you know, it just becomes, you just have to keep adding what ifs, what ifs to this for it to try to even make any sense. Is it's seven times over a month, eight? What if I do it seven times in 31 days, it's a longer month, but what if it's February now and there's only 28? You know, it just makes no sense whatsoever. And one final point I wanted to bring up was that go into your digital Bible and do a search or in your concordance for the term “once for all” and you'll find close to a dozen scriptures that say Christ died for our sins once for all. All sin, all time, all people! You know, they've already been taken care of when he went to the cross and before the creation of the world, it says, God has chosen to see us holy and blameless in His sight. When Christ went to the cross, he knew every sin we would ever commit and yet he still went. He didn't say, well, I'm not going because that guy's got patterns. It's just illogical in the light of the gospel. Ajai 00:20:23 Yeah. I think the other, underlying implication of this teaching is right. Someone who has a pattern of sins, what they're saying is unless you somehow forsake that pattern, God is not going to receive you. Right? So, but the problem is people who have the pattern of sins, they're the ones who need Christ more than people who do not have pattern of sins, so to speak. But what these people, this kind of teaching is doing is basically the teaching goes like this, right? Hey, you know, you've been committing this over and over again, this, and unless you forsake that sin, God is not going to receive you or God is not going to bless you or like put whatever it is. Right? So, these people have to first force the sin before they come to Christ. But the thing is, you know, these are the kind of people who are struggling with pattern sins are the ones that need the need Christ more, most to be delivered from this pattern. So I think without, I mean, realizing this kind of teaching is actually cutting away Christ's help from these people who are genuinely struggling. Tim 00:21:34 Well, I think too, if I had the ability to forsake those sins, why would I need Jesus in the first place? I can't, I can't get out of the bondage to sin. So don't tell me that suddenly I've I can, that's why I need Jesus. Ajai 00:21:50 Yep, exactly. Mark 00:21:52 I, I really feel like the pastors that teach this type of theology, doctrine if you will, false doctrine. I'm gonna give many of them the benefit of the doubt that their intentions are good. They wanna see their congregations free from sin, living holy lives. They wanna see good things. They wanna see those people devoting themselves to doing what is good, but it's a basic misunderstanding. They lack knowledge of how that happens. They think by them guilting or cheerleading or giving more information to their listeners, that that's somehow going to equip them to overcome the own, their own sin in their life. Which as we know is completely wrong. And one of my favorite scriptures is in the book of Titu, which is a pastoral letter. And it's actually Paul writing to a young pastor. He's teaching pastors, what to teach, what are you to teach? And he goes in Titus 3:4 I'm not gonna quote the entire thing, but he talks all about the kindness and love of God that we are justified by his grace. That he's poured his spirit out on us. Not one mention of sin, anywhere in about a paragraph to two paragraphs. And then at the, at the end, he says to Titus this young pastor and I would say in turn all pastors, that I want you to stress these things. And he says this, he says, this is a trustworthy saying, and I want you to stress these things so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone. So there's a basic misunderstanding here that they think the way they're gonna help their congregation to live better lives and to devote themselves to doing good is by them guilting them, cheerleading them, encouraging them, teaching them not to sin. Where that's not what the apostle Paul told Titus to stress “you stress Christ, His grace, His kindness and love and that it's not by any righteous act we've done. Ajai 00:24:14 Yeah. That also reminds me, I think it's in the same book of Titus. It's a grace of God that teaches us to deny ungodliness. Mark 00:24:25 And I'm sure with a little time we could probably bring dozens and dozens of them, that tell us that it's not by putting ourselves under the law that we overcome sin in our life, it's just the opposite, we put ourselves under grace. And it seems like so many roads lead back to that one, basic misunderstanding that it's what the gospel of grace leads to. Is it a license to sin or is it the only power and the only way to get out from underneath the dominion of sin? And the latter is obviously what scripture tells us is true. Tim 00:25:03 All right. I think that's dealt with it as much as we're going to today, so I'd like to move on, I think we've got some time here, so let's try and add one more topic to discuss. And that is the idea that God gives us or sends us bad things to teach us. For instance, somebody who got sick and says, saying, I don't know why the Lord gave me sickness, I'm sure it's to teach me something like humility or patience, or I don't know. I find the whole idea tiring in my head that God is going to give us bad things. Mark 00:25:44 I agree with that, Tim and a prime example, I'll cite to you. I heard of a local pastor who, unfortunately, his daughter came down with cancer, his young daughter, and he stood up in front of his congregation and told them that God sent cancer to his daughter to teach him something. And that that's just sad. It's just sad for everybody involved that he would believe that's the character of God. First off, just as we start to go into this, God doesn't need to send us things like that to teach us. Scripture says, I'm gonna read you this, this Bible verse here in John 14 it says “that God's given us the advocate, the holy spirit, whom the father will send in my name. He will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I've said to you”. First of all, God's got so many other ways to teach us things that are gonna, there's no guarantee just cuz something bad happens to me. I'm gonna learn something. <laugh> he's given us his he's given us his spirit to teach us. He's given us his word to teach us. He's given us other Christians to teach us. He's given prophets and apostles and teachers to the church to help us learn. He's got just a, a plethora of riches to teach us, He doesn't need to give his children cancer <laugh> to teach them something. Tim 00:27:17 No I it's. And I will say also it's very clearly defined that God is the giver of good and perfect gifts. I don't find anything about being, given something like illness or tragedy to be good or perfect. Those those are in, in not in congruous, they're in congruous with each other and I guess, yeah, I can't live with that particular idea. Ajai Ajai 00:27:45 Mark. You know, I am and Tim <laugh>. Yeah. I'm reminded of, a, an incident, you know, with one of the, actually servants of God, you know, that's what we call in India. So, I think that discussion that we are having also goes touches the topic of God, does things not only to teach us something, but also to punish us for our mistakes and wrongdoings, right, so I know a, minister of, the gospel and in India. So one day he and his wife, they met with a terrible accident and his wife, immediately, you know, she, passed away and he was in the hospital for many, many days. And the first thing, the first thing that came out of his mouth after being a servant of God for so long is like, I don't know what God is punishing me for. So that is a first thing. I think that's also another form of say, you know, God is teaching me a lesson. But I think this all comes from again, you know, not understanding the, the nature of God and our relationship with God and (the) finished work off our Lord Jesus Christ. So Lord Jesus Christ already took away all our sins, took our curse, He took our diseases, He took our punishment and He took upon himself the wrath of God. And He redeemed us from the curse. So if he, if lodge redeemed us from the curse, the only thing we can expect from God is blessing, right? So God is not going to send a sickness is not a blessing by any stretch of imagination, right? So, if God is sending a sickness, we are essentially saying that Christ has ridding me from the curse of the law because the sickness belongs to the curse. It not does not belong to blessing. And the Bible clearly says, you know, if any of you ask for a bread, like if you have a father, even an elderly father, if your children ask for bread, will God give them, a stone, right? If you ask for a fish, will I give them, will the father give them a snake? So you being humans, if you're so good, right? You, being evil, give good gifts to your children, how much more they heavenly father gives good gifts. So I'm not sure like about others, but I almost pray every day. Lord bless me. Right? Bless me with good things. Bless me with good health. Bless my family with good health. So every day we are asking for good health. So, what makes you think, you know, God will give you sickness like cancer. And every day we are praying for the protection, the Psalm 91, right, protection for our family and loved ones and what makes you think that God will actually send some accidents your way, regardless of the purpose of, that accident? Mark 00:30:55 Yeah, that's a good point, Ajai. You know, one thing I, I just wanna put out, there is one thing we are not trying to do and I pray that we never fall into this, and that's try to hammer God, change him into the mold that we see him as. So, in other words, because we're, what we're not trying to do is because we see God as a loving God who so loved the world that He gave us his only begotten son, even in the midst of our sin, that because we have that knowledge, we're trying to hammer everything else to line up with that. We're not doing that. We're using scripture to get things in line with who he's at. We're not saying, oh, well, because we know him to be a good God, this can't be true. It's no, it's because what scripture tells us about who God is, that this can't be true. And, and this type of thinking goes back for thousands of years in Jesus’ time, it was prevalent. I'm gonna read you Luke 13 here. Now, “now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilot had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered. Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you two will all perish or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them - do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you no, but unless you repent, you too, will all perish”. And then there's another thing where he heals, the paralyzed man, I believe it was. And, and the people around were saying, why is this man paralyzed because of his sin or his parents' sin? and Jesus said, no. So, what I love about Jesus, he's saying your thinking is all wrong here. Bad things don't happen to people because they're more of a sinner than that guy standing over there. First of all, it's a given, we're all sinners we all deserve condemnation and guilt. And yet Christ took that upon himself, perfectly fulfilled the righteous requirement of the law and gave that to us to be the righteousness of God. So, but what Jesus does say here though, and what I love is he says, do not think, do not think this that's incorrect thinking. And then he says, but unless you repent, you two will perish. And now we gotta be careful here with that word, repent, cuz that repent doesn't mean you need to, you need to rebuke sin in your life and live, you know, pulling up your own bootstraps and, and start flying, right? Repent is from metanoya, which means to rethink, he's telling them no, don't think this way, rethink. We need to rethink who God is, who Christ is and what He's done for us. And one of the things He hasn't done for us is send us cancer and suffering so that we'll learn. We’re His children now and just like any good dad, they're gonna take their child, set 'em on their knee and teach them and talk to them for their, for their good and like I mentioned before, there's a million ways God can speak to us to teach us. Ajai 00:34:27 Yeah. Just to add one more scripture, Psalm 103, verses 1 - 5, “Bless the Lord of my soul and all that is within me, bless His holy name. Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits who forgives all your inequities, who heals all your diseases, who redeems your life from destruction, who crowns you with loving kindness and tender mercies. Who satisfies your mouth with good things so that your youth is renewed like eagles”. So here, you know, there's nothing that says, you know, God is going to send destruction. In fact, it says, you know, He's going to redeem us from destruction. And here it says, who heals all our diseases? He doesn't give us diseases, right? It's opposite of that. And finally, He satisfies us with good things, He doesn't send bad things away. So having said that, you know, we do go through some bad things and trials and tribulations and sickness and difficulties in our life. And in fact, you know, God is not sending those things into our life, on the other hand, he is still causing us and causing all those things even to work for our good. Bible says, you know, God causes all things to work for our good. So it's the opposite, right? If we have the mentality that, you know, God is sending me this, there's no way you can go to God for help and there's no way you can expect good things to happen to us because if God himself is punishing me, where else can I go? But you know, when you understand that it's not God that's sending me these things, it's not, God send sending me the storms in my life. then you can trust God for deliverance and you can also be confident that all these things are working out for my good, Tim 00:36:23 Amen. Is that where we are done for the evening? Mark 00:36:26 let me, let me close up with one thought here, Tim. And that's about rightly dividing the word of God. If we do not divide rightly between what is old covenant and what is new covenant, we fall into this type of, you know, it's like a wave tossing about and tossing us about in the ocean. The old covenant, if we did not keep the law, there was consequence, there was punishment, there was condemnation and guilt. So, before Christ came, God did send things to Israel to try to teach them and try to draw his, his goal was always to draw them back, but they could never come back because, because we cannot because of the weakness of our flesh maintain the law, so He sent Christ to deliver us from that whole system and that whole way of thinking and it's really a hopeless way of living under the law. That's why we have such a great hope in Christ and why the apostle Paul prayed that the eyes of our, our hearts would be enlightened to know the hope to which He's called us. Where's the hope in God's sending me cancer. How can I pray to the very one that's giving me cancer to take it away or to give me strength to overcome it and go through? {Exactly.} No, it's impossible. It's self-defeating and thank you, Jesus, that it's not the truth, it's not the gospel cuz if it was, that would not be good news. And the gospel is the best news that ever came across the face of the planet. Tim 00:38:10 Well, thank you, mark. appreciate that little cap on the whole thing and everybody, we, appreciate your, your listening and as always, please contact us through the means as we'll be explained in the, music following. Thanks guys. Have a great rest of your day and we'll talk again soon.