Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Tim: Hello, this is The Unveiling, the usual hosts at their microphones, ready to spread the word for another day. This is going to be episode 77 and we're calling it Confession of Sin. So guys, welcome back. Good to see you. We are going to have a little treat tonight, in that I don't think we came together with a very specific goal for a very specific topic. And we've done this a couple of times. I think we did one a few weeks back, and I think we called it Free For All. It just wasn't a name that resonated with us. So anytime we do this... I think we've decided we're going to call it The Crucible. Insert echoes and cheering and music in the background.
[00:00:45] Mark: Thunderclaps would be nice, too.
[00:00:47] Tim: So these are going to be a little less structured than maybe , we've had in a lot of our previous episodes, but it's, it's what we do during the week. Often in text, but occasionally when we can, we get together and just talk and we bring things to the table that we're learning or leaning into. And we bounce these things between us. It's a bit of iron sharpening iron where we clarify what we understand and why we understand and it's just really a good time for us. We like to Share that with everybody. So tonight I get the honor of throwing out the first pitch to somebody to catch and run forward with Mark, you're, you're looking all happy and, and free and unencumbered. I'm going to, I'm going to give it to you. Where are we at it tonight?
[00:01:39] Mark: Well, Tim, I just want to start out just kind of defining what a crucible is. A crucible is usually a ceramic dish that you put things in, apply heat to it, and it boils the impurities off until you're left with the pure, refined essence of whatever it is. You put in there and really the three of us is, as Tim mentioned, we've had a crucible going on signal and texting since pretty much day one of this podcast, and I think some of our most meaningful conversations and sometimes arguments and debates, but that's part of applying the heat to the crucible. But it's not ever done with animosity, we just love the gospel and have such a passion for this astounding, powerful, life changing good news that we just want more and more of it and want to get to the purest form of it. We don't want tradition or things that people have added or our own backgrounds or past. We're trying to get to Jesus, basically, unhindered.
[00:02:49] Tim: So what you're saying is, a fight could break out at any moment.
[00:02:53] Mark: , it's, you know, there are some benefits for us being in different states. It prevents violence. Well, for it was our very passionate and it's through our What's the word? Heartfelt debate sometimes that we come out on the other end. Still friends and hopefully with a little more insight into the, the one true gospel.
[00:03:13] Ajai: Yeah, that's really awesome, Mark. You say that the crucible analogy, in fact, you know, I myself did not fully understand, but you know, when you boil and remove the impurities, what we see is Lord Jesus Christ himself. And I believe we need a lot of that because. I almost feel like if you go to any average church, they preach everything except Christ. So our goal is to preach nothing but Christ. And it takes the power of the Holy Spirit because Sometimes, you know, we preach Christ, we preach Christ, right? You know, we can't just repeat Jesus, Jesus, Jesus for two hours. So, it takes the power of the Holy Spirit to preach Christ. I think that's what, that's why a lot of people don't do that. It's very easy to give rules and regulations and motivational teachings. Or, you know, you can pick a list of... sins and deal with each sin every week. You know, you can spend 52 weeks like that, you know, giving some tips and tricks on how to overcome that sin. But if you forget all that and then just preach Christ and Him crucified, it's not easy if you think about it. We need the power of the Holy Spirit to do that.
[00:04:22] Tim: Well, what's worse is if you keep preaching behavior modification or... conforming to a certain set of rules, actions, activities, et cetera, which are all you're doing is setting someone up for failure. I, I'll be the first one to admit, I don't follow all the traffic laws. I sometimes go too fast. I sometimes park where I'm not supposed to park. I mean, these are the things that I do, even though I know the rules. But I can't, I can't or won't or don't even follow those simple rules. How am I going to follow all of the moral rules for everything in my life? You just are beating people saying you need to do this and this and this, work harder, work harder, work harder. You're either going to get, and I call it this all the time, you're either going to get spun off that hamster wheel of activity, or you're going to get so depressed, you just can't handle it anymore and walk away.
[00:05:21] Mark: Ajai. This is a good, I like this conversation we're having here. What's the saying you say about a lot, and you're talking about the churches that are just preaching. It's basically motivational. They do it through teaching or shaming and guilting or cheerleading. They have many different ways of doing it. But the thing is, I think you call the Jesus on the sidelines. They give it a little lip service. There's a veneer of Jesus in what they do, what's, you want to explain that?
[00:05:52] Ajai: Yeah, , I think I said it before a couple of times. I don't exactly remember the entire phrase, but what comes to my mind when I think of most of the messages in the church is Jesus on the sidelines, right? The message of the gospel is Lord Jesus Christ himself. What they do is they just give lip service to the gospel, or, you know, maybe the only time Jesus shows up is in Jesus name I pray. Beyond that, you know, there's no Jesus, right? It's always about what we have to do, how we have to improve our lives. So , lately I've been meditating a lot on this, the church, and the message, , the centrality of the message has to be the Lord Jesus Christ himself. But like we discussed, , in most churches, he is. It's always something else, what you have to do, self improvement, or dealing with specific sins, or even, you know, just giving glory to God, right, you know, through our lives. The focus is , what we do to give glory to God rather than what Christ did to give us or share His glory with us, like we discussed last time.
[00:06:57] Mark: Yeah, I also like the way I just kind of stumbled upon it. It has a veneer. of Christ, a very thin layer that when you peel it back, it's a giant block of the law. It's rules and regulations, traditions, . They may be more modern in the last hundred or 200 years in America of what people do in church, but it's still the same thing as it was 2000 years ago. It's your own flesh. It's your own ability. to follow rules and do the right thing when somebody tells you what the right thing is, and to not do the wrong thing when someone tells you what the wrong thing is. So with that in mind, this morning I was walking the dogs recently, I moved to the south here, I haven't seen it up north as much where I've been in ministry most of my life and lived my whole life, but down here a lot of the churches have a component, every service called confession or confessional, and someone goes to the front and starts to encourage the people in the church to start with a magnifying glass, looking back at their life for the last week, how they messed up, how did they sin, and the way they do that can vary from very shaming. And laying guilt on them, sometimes they'll say, instead of like just out and out yelling at them, they might say, you know what, Jesus did this and this and this for us. How could you do that? You know, that kind of thing. Or sometimes it's more positive and they say, Hey, you know, we're, we all fall to this, but as long as we confess it now, God will forgive us. And first of all, it's just wrong, wrong, wrong. We've already confessed to God to become Christians. We came to him , and acknowledged that we are helpless sinners. We can't do anything about that. We are in desperate need of you, Lord Jesus. And we put our faith in him. And , when that happens, he is faithful to forgive us of our sins. and purifies from all righteousness. He died once and for all for us. At that moment we have died to the law, we've been married and joined to Christ so that we might produce good fruit out of our lives. It's that progression, dying to the law, being joined to Christ, and then just like a healthy, free, fruit naturally be. is produced out of that. If we don't get rid of the law in trying to do it ourself, and let's face it, confession is really just a part of the law, feeling bad about our mistakes, and I'm not saying to feel happy about our mistakes, I prefer to confess my savior, not my sin to confess the sufficiency of the cross, the unmerited undeserved favor of God, that he is lavished upon us all in Christ Jesus.
[00:10:05] Tim: And what good does it do when we're sitting there in church using that magnifying glass on ourselves and finding all the things we did wrong? What good does that do for us? It doesn't, there's, there's nothing good that comes from that. I mean, I know, I know. I messed up already. The thing about grace, though, is I don't have to dwell on it. I don't have to beat myself up on it. I don't have to use it to try and, you know, pull myself up by my bootstraps, put my shoulder to the wheel and work harder to be better next week. I just have to, just have to rest in Jesus. There's nothing else I can do.
[00:10:42] Mark: You made a great point, Tim. If it did work. If it was effective, by now they wouldn't have to do it anymore because they would already talked and guilted everybody out of their sin. It's powerless. And the words Paul used in Titus 3, 4 are, it is not excellent and profitable. There is no profit in doing. And he used another word about dwelling on sin. We're not called to dwell on our sin. We're called to dwell on and in Christ. , that's what is profitable and excellence in our lives. And if I could, I'd like to just recite Titus 3, 4 for everybody. Paul was the predominant preacher of the one true gospel. The resurrected Christ revealed it to him in person, changed his life. Complete turnaround, and I just want to mention, this is Paul writing to a young pastor who was pastoring one of the churches that Paul himself had planted. And he's giving, he's telling him how and what to preach, and he says, but when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done. But because of his mercy, he saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ, our Savior. So that having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs, having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying, and I want you to stress these things so that those who have trusted in God, may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable, everyone. Twice he said these things. I want you to stress these things. These things are excellent and profitable. So it benefits us greatly to look back at what these things are. He talked about the kindness and love of God and that he saved us, not because of anything good we did. But because of his mercy, he saved us by washing us, renewing us, and we were reborn again by the Holy Spirit. He poured the Spirit out on us, not just a little bit, but generously through Jesus Christ. And now we have been justified, which means we've been made... Absolutely righteous, the righteousness of God by his grace, his unmerited, unearned, undeserved favor, that we might become heirs We're his sons and daughters, children, his heirs now. And now we have the hope of eternal life. And then he says, stress these things. There's plenty in there. You could do a message on one of those points every week for, for the rest of your life. I like what the purpose is here. . Some of these pastors and leaders that rail on the congregation, they're doing it out of good intentions. They want to see their people have good lives, good marriages. Be good workers on the marketplace, raising their kids well, giving generously. Those are all good things, but Paul is saying, if you want them to do that, if you want them to be careful to devote themselves to doing good, here's what you stress. Nowhere in that entire teaching admonishment letter to Titus does he say, focus on people's sin. . The focus is Jesus Christ. That's profitable, that's excellent.
[00:14:28] Ajai: Yeah, that's an excellent point, Mark. You mentioned confession of sin, focus on sin, and I believe, the more I look at it, the more why people are so obsessed with sin. It seems , one of the hardest things for believers, actually the true born again believers of God, is to believe that all their sins are forgiven. I think that comes from two places, the difficulty to believe that our sins are forgiven. One is even after becoming born again, we still sin daily, one way or other. We may not be doing all those big things, but there is not a day that goes by without sinning. So that troubles us. And the second thing I believe, this unbelief comes from, basically stems from lack of understanding of what gospel is. I want to go back to the Gospel itself, what Paul preached in Acts 13. This is a recorded sermon of Paul given to us, Acts chapter 13 and 38. Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. And through him everyone who believes is freed from all things, or justified from all things. from which you could not be freed from the law of Moses. So the gospel at the core is a proclamation of forgiveness of sins. It's not saying if you do this, come repent and then your sins will be forgiven or do this, your sins will be forgiven. But the proclamation is your sins are forgiven. That is a proclamation. And the way anyone enters into this Christian life or becoming born again is simply believing that their sins are forgiven. Most of us are not believing the basic gospel, which is the forgiveness of sins. They think that when they believed in Christ, when they confessed him as their savior, most of them think that their sins up to that point are forgiven. And then , every time they sin, they have to go through this ritual or do this or do that. to get our sins forgiven. But really, when you look at that, look at the gospel itself, it's just the message of forgiveness of sins. That's why it's called the good news. Humanity, because of our sin, we are under the wrath of God and we are on our way to hell. And then this message comes, Hey, your sins are forgiven. What does that mean? If your sins are forgiven, the consequences of sin are removed and they are reversed. And the wages of sin, our Lord Jesus Christ took upon himself. And because of that, our sins are forgiven. And in Romans chapter four, this is one of my favorite scriptures. And the blessing, the primary blessing of the gospel is non imputation of sins. That's how we enter into all the blessings of Christ. Because of the non imputation of sins, we have all other blessings. In Romans, chapter 4, verse 6, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works. Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven. and whose sins have been covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account. Or in King James it says, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. This verse only applies to those who sin. If we didn't sin, why would Lord impute sin to us, right? So this verse applies to the believers who trusted on Lord Jesus Christ but still sin. Even though we sin, Lord is not imputing sin to us. Only when we fully believe in our forgiveness and rest in it, we are able to live the life that God gave to give us, right? The new life in Christ, the abundant life that God gave to give us. Unless we rest in our forgiveness, , we cannot step into the abundant life because we are going through this cycle every time, we sin, we confess, we sin, we confess. All our life is spent in this sin confession cycle. So what Lord wants us, , let's put that behind. I'm not counting our sins against you. Now launch into the abundant life, the eternal life that I gave, that I died to give you
[00:18:44] Mark: . I think one of the more fairly controversial things we learned, I learned through, since we've started this podcast together, guys, is the fact that we are no longer under the law. That comes as a shock to a huge amount of Christians. If you make the statement, okay, we all know that Christians still sin, all people in the world sin, but our sin, once we come to Christ is no longer a transgression against God. It's still, we're not saying it's not bad. Sin destroys people's lives. It, it does a huge amount of damage to this world, to the people living in this world. That's not what we're saying. What we're saying is that the Apostle Paul taught us that we are no longer under the dominion of sin, for we are no longer under the law, but under grace. And then he said, and where there is no law, there is no transgression. Where there is no law, sin is not charged. to anyone's account. That is so clear.
[00:19:53] Tim: , I don't understand why Christianity has basically subsumed the idea that the law , is what we're supposed to do. The law was never given to Gentiles. It was literally only given , to the Jews. So , how did we subsume that into Christianity as okay now it applies to everybody?
[00:20:15] Mark: I think we're born with that in our DNA, you know, it's a way that seems right to people. Now, they, they don't always keep that, but you know, they, they, they, everybody believes it. Look at every world religion that that's why Christ stands alone shining through all this is because every other system in the world is about, , karma. It's about , you get what you, you deserve. There's a million sayings that are all based around... that, , the motivational speeches dads gave their kids, , , no free lunches, , we made money the old fashioned way, we earned it, , it's all about earning in this life. And I think that's a way that just seems right to people and so we have this bent to fall into it.
[00:??:??] Ajai: I quickly want to address this Tim, your question. Yeah, the law in the mosaic, the form of mosaic law with the Ten Commandments as a moral code was not given to Gentiles. But still, the Bible says that the law of the law as in the moral law, the good versus what is good, what is bad is written in our conscience. And again, I think the purpose of the law, whether it is given in written form or whether it is written in our conscience, the purpose is the same thing to you. Show us that we are sinners and we are falling short and we need Christ in Romans chapter 2 from verse 12 to 15 for all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law and all who have sinned Under the law will be judged by the law for it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God But the doers of the law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the law do instinctively the things of the law, these not having the law are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately, alternately accusing or else defending them. On the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Jesus Christ. So the purpose of the law, again, if you go to Romans chapter 3 and verse 20, it says, it's even though the law is given to the Jews, for them it is given in the written form. For Gentiles, it is written on their hearts. But the purpose is the same thing. In Romans chapter 3, verse 20, I believe, it says, It's important, I think we talk about it multiple times, but the purpose is this. Now we know whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God. Even though the law is given to Jews, but the purpose of the law applies to the whole world. It's, it doesn't say. All the Jews may become accountable to God. It says the all the world may become accountable to God because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight. For through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
[00:23:21] Tim: So through the law, no one will be justified in his sight. You're saying that the fact that someone may never have heard of Jesus, the Jews, the Mosaic law. They still have a conscience and that will act as the law for them
[00:23:38] Ajai: Yep. To bring them to the realization that they have fallen short of the glory of God. They cannot justify themselves based on their good works. And it is very important because in most religions. There are people who think they are living a pretty good life and they do all the good things. They never do all these bad things and they think they're pretty good and God must reward them with eternal life for their good behavior. So that's when, you know, the purity of the law has returned. in their conscience will be manifested or when it is manifested, then they come to realize that outwardly, maybe I am having good works, but if I'm judged by the true standard of the law, I'll be falling short because the conscience tells, right? Even though in a simple example, you know, most of us are very nice to people on their face, but deep down only we know, Hey, I'm just pretending, right? That is our conscience. That's the law written around hearts. That is, Convicting us. Hey, you know, you're pretending to be good, but you're not actually good.
[00:24:45] Mark: Christianity, correct me if I'm wrong or if you can think of another instance. It seems to me to be the only, I don't want to use the word religion because Christianity is not a religion, but Christ is the only one that tells his followers you cannot keep the law. You're unable to do it. Every other one starts with the premise that you can please God by keeping the law, you just need to try harder. Christianity says you can't do it, that you can't do it, that's why you need a savior. And that's probably why God wrote, you know, gave us a conscience. And I think you read that scripture that used the word written in us. So that kind of backed up my supposition that it's something we're born with.
[00:25:37] Ajai: Yeah.
[00:25:37] Mark: You know, we all have consciences and the law weighs heavy on that because we realize that we haven't it kept.
[00:25:45] Ajai: Yeah, that's an excellent point you made about other religions and their assumption. Again, the 180 degrees factor mark, like you say, in Christianity, the law is given to show us we are sinners, we are falling short, we can never attain to righteousness by the works of the law. It's like you know, you're speeding and you get a traffic ticket, right? The ticket is given to show that you broke the law. And that's the only reason, you know, the traffic cop is there. The ticket is not showing that, , you kept the law. So for us, the law is, or the Christianity says, the law is given to show us our sins. But with other religions, it's the exact opposite. They interpret the law as something they can keep to become righteous. Total opposite.
[00:26:32] Mark: It's like we're driving. The speed limit's 55, and we're all driving around in Lamborghinis, can't go under 100 miles an hour. <Yeah>. So we can't keep the law because we don't have the ability to do that. We're driving around in Lamborghinis that constantly break that speed limit, no matter how much we ride the brakes.
[00:26:55] Ajai: . And you can never go to the court and show your ticket and say, hey, I kept the law. It's impossible, ? It's a proof that you broke the law,
[00:27:02] Mark: but there's good news folks <do tell> Someone kept that law for us on our behalf Jesus Christ Fully met the righteous requirement of the law in us God made him who had no sin to become sin for us that we might become the righteousness And as Paul said it Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God who gives us the victory in our Lord Jesus. That's the good news. The reason the good news is so good is because there's first some bad news. You know, that we do all have a sin problem. And I think we all know that because we all do have consciences. But it's where do you go with that? You try harder to get rid of it, which is an impossibility, or we turn to Jesus.
[00:27:52] Tim: A lot of people assuage their conscience by doing good works. , we talked about this recently. There is a lot of people in the world who may be better people than I am, but that doesn't make them saved people. They may be out doing more they may be, , doing acts of kindness more. They may be doing this. But. Even that really comes off as some sort of act of contrition for what you know you haven't done right. And, you know, we're all going to be judged by the same standard, and that standard is do you believe or not. Guys, these, these discussions are always so fast. I think it's time for us to wrap up. So, Ajay, why don't you go first, and since Mark kind of started this off, we'll let him kind of finish it off.
[00:28:43] Ajai: Yeah, Tim. I believe based on the scriptures, it is again, counterintuitive. We think if we shame people, if we beat them up, if you make them feel condemned for long enough, , they will straighten up and live a holy life. But the Bible based on the scriptures, , it is totally opposite. The opposite is true. That's why we emphasize so much. on not being under the law and emphasize so much on our sins are completely forgiven and erased because the power to live the Christian life we all want, ? The holy life, the life that is pleasing to God comes from knowing that our sins are completely forgiven. That is a blessedness. Blessedness. Blessed is the man to whom The Lord will not impute sin. And Romans 5 17 says they that receive the gift of righteousness will reign in life. You know, that is a secret to Christian living. It's right there. If you don't know anything else, just read Romans 17. It's very simple. Both the gospel and the secret to living a victorious life is right there. They that receive the gift of righteousness will reign in life of our Lord Jesus Christ. If you are reigning, you are reigning like a king, that is, you are victorious. If you are reigning in life, sin will not reign over you. Addictions will not reign over you. Nothing else will reign over you. The secret to living Christian life in a victorious manner is owning this gift of righteousness. Own the gift of righteousness and thank God that we are righteous and claim the gift of righteousness and Slowly, but surely, you will begin to reign in life.
[00:30:28] Tim: Right. Thanks, Mark?
[00:30:30] Mark: Well, I'll just say, to me, as I'm listening to our conversation here, it just occurs to me, there's nothing, nothing more important in life than understanding the gospel and receiving it. And so many untold thousands and even millions have got it 180 degrees backwards. They believe that by focusing on the rules, by teaching, and prodding, and guilting, and shaming, and encouraging, and chilling people not to sin, and to do good things, that that's somehow going to deliver them from sin. But scripture says over and over that it's the law itself that arouses our sinful passions. In fact, when that pastor gets up there and starts yelling at us not to do something, you just increase the odds that we're going to do that, that week, you know. And Paul also tells us that the sting of death is sin. And the power of sin is the law. So trying to use the very thing that is the power of sin to get rid of sin makes no sense whatsoever. The only way to get out from under the slavery of sin and its dominion is to turn to Christ, to his grace, which people are afraid of, but they've got it backwards. It's the law that causes sin. Grace is not a license to sin. It's the only hope we have of sin diminishing and not being a taskmaster for us, a slave owner anymore.
[00:32:09] Tim: , occurs to me that what's being taught today, and we've talked about this before, is not the true gospel. It's not Jesus Christ and Him crucified, the Holy Spirit living in us. It's... We're being taught to conform, which is us acting and working on ourselves. We're not being taught how we've been transformed by the Holy Spirit. Be ye transformed. Okay, now get to work and conform to this cookie cutter ideal, and the good way to know if that's what's happening to you is if you walk out of church feeling shamed, guilty depressed, condemned, this is not a good place. This is not teaching the full gospel, the pure gospel. Find a place, because that's going to change and radically change your life. Guys, again, this one went so fast, I think I got whiplash. So, that's where we're going to end for tonight. We thank you all for listening, and we look forward to talking to you again the next time.
