Episode 1 - Why We Need Grace

Tim 00:00:07 Hello and welcome to the unveiling with your hosts Ajai, Mark and Tim. Three guys discussing the one true gospel. This is episode number one, so let's dive right in. Tim 00:00:20 Hi guys. Good to get together again tonight. And I wanted to talk about, well, gee, what, what do we talk about every time we get together God's grace? But God's grace is all wonderful and all that, but without having some impetus for it, it doesn't seem like it's all that big a deal. You know, God is love, love is grace, grace is Jesus, Jesus Lord, blah, blah, blah. But the pre truth in the matter is, there's a very specific reason for the true gospel of grace that we need this. But I tell you what, there's a lot of people that aren't gonna believe that. And so why don't you, Why don't we start there and see where we go? Mark 00:00:58 Well, I think it comes down to a very basic reason that I think pretty much most people already know. And that is because we are incapable of not screwing up. We're human beings. We're tempted in so many different areas of our life. If the only way to gain God's forgiveness and acceptance and love is to perfectly fulfill all the thou shalls and the thou shall nots, not to mention all the rules that mankind heaps on, we can't do it. And for those who may doubt me, then I would say the minute you start really trying to do it, that's when you're gonna find out you really can't do it. A lot of people have led their lives not really trying to change their behavior. Just like, I'm okay, I'm going through my life. Yeah, I screw up now and then. But it's not until you really try to live a good life and not screw up and not fall to the same mistakes that you really find out how unable you are to keep things perfectly. Tim 00:02:13 I think we need to define some terms here because okay. You know, I've, I've never killed anybody. I've never, you know, told a big lie that got anybody else in trouble or did this. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty good. I'm done. You know, I know that 10 commands are, do I keep everyone all the time? No, but you know, I mean, statistically speak, I, I think I'm above average. Mark 00:02:33 Well, I just wanna repeat what you just said. Have I kept the 10 commandments all the time? Well, no, but I… stop right there. That's the mark that we have to keep to gain God's forgiveness, Not even forgiveness. If we kept that, we wouldn't need forgiveness. So that's the mark that we're all required to keep, to gain acceptance, to gain, a guarantee of our future life in heaven. Heaven with him. The minute you say that, I haven't kept him all, you can just stop right there. Ajai 00:03:04 Yeah. You know, that is, I think, you know, what we are talking here is, the problem of humanity, right? What is the problem of humanity? And why do we even need grace? Right? Tim 00:03:17 Yeah. That's a good, Question, right. Ajai 00:03:19 If we look at our own life, right? You know, we all can tell that, you know, we have this thing, you know, we always want to be good, but we cannot be good. Like Mark is saying, the Bible calls it sin, right? You know, we all have this sin consciousness, right? And we all have a conscious that is given to us. You know, people might deny it in the public, but deep down they know there's something wrong with them. And we cannot really do the good that we want to do. And we really don't need any explicit loss. So we all know we have a conscience. And then when we try to live by the conscience, you know, we always fail. So I think the problem is also a little deeper, right? You know, it's not just sin. You know, God is not telling us, you know, okay, you guys are here, you guys are on a neutral ground, and if you, if you don't sin, you'll be saved. Ajai 00:04:10 And if you sin, I will kill you. But the problem is, the Bible says in Romans, five 12 through one man, sin enter the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sin. So our problem is something called death, right? When Adam sinned, the first man that was ever created by God, when he sinned, he brought death. So Mark already touched on it. So try to do something good, but we cannot, right? You know, that inability to do anything good is because we are dead. So we are dead to the life of God. Tim 00:04:54 So this is, this is what Paul is saying when he says that, which I would do, I do not. And that which I would not do that I do, cuz I've noticed that in my life, there are certain times when I'm gonna concentrate on fixing some part of my life. And the more I struggle to fix, the more often I screw it up. Mark 00:05:15 That reminds me of the old saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. That's pretty scriptural and spiritual when you think about it. Cuz I think most of us wanna be good people and we have good intentions, right? But they don't lead anywhere because we can't ever do 'em well enough other than we're the saying says they lead to. Ajai 00:05:39 Yeah. So yeah, Tim, you know, back to your point, right? You know, why we need grace or why we need salvation. So for me, I think there are two things, you know, one is, our experientially, we all know that we are, there's something wrong with us, right? You know, we always try to do good, but we end up doing bad. And if we want to be good husbands, we are not. We want to be good fathers. We are not. Right? We want to be good student, we want to be honest workers, and we are not. And then the cover up is that, okay, now we start comparing with others. So it's like, you know, if you're two cancer patients, right? And you compare with the cancer patient, you know, who is stage two, is comparing with the cancer patient who is at stage five, right? It's the same thing we are doing. Both of us have cancer and sooner or later both will die. There's no difference. So that's what we are doing because we all know, you know, there's something wrong with us. You know, we started comparing with each other to, to feel better about it. But, you know, that's where I think the Bible is so different from other religious books, right? So other religious books says, you know, by doing, by meditating, by yoga, by striving hard, you can get to a state, you know, where you can live a above sin. But the Bible, you know, it simply state the facts. If you go back to Romans again, it says, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Romans 3:22 to 23. And in Romans 3:10 says, There is none righteous. No, not one and all have turned aside. They've all together become unprofitable. There is none who does good. No, not one. So I think Mark, to your point, you know, yes, you know, we do have good intentions and I don't disagree with that, but deep down, right, you know, even though we might deceive to think that we have good intentions, but the Bible is clear, You know, the heart is desperately wicked. And in, Genesis chapter 6, the Bible says that every thought or every imagination of the heart of the man is only evil continually. So strictly speaking, I think we don't have good intentions either it just a coverup or we are deceive to think that we have good intentions. Mark 00:07:59 And what, what, just so you don't misunderstand, I didn't mean that all our intentions are good. Cause we have many intentions that like you're saying are not good when we, when we purposely cheat on our taxes or just name, you know, x, y, and Z. Yes, we do have bad intentions. Yeah. Do I ever wanna help my neighbor, 89 year old woman take out her garbage? And is that a good intention? Yeah, it is. You know, but, but it's, I wasn't trying to say all our intentions are good. Ajai 00:08:31 Thanks. Thanks for that. Not at all. Tim 00:08:35 All right. So what I heard this verse earlier by one man sin or the world, I'm going to go ahead and say, that's Adam. As much as I'd like to blame Eve <laugh>, that's Adam <laugh>, and then by, and by another man. Ajai 00:08:51 So through one man sin to the world and death through sin, and that that spread to all men, because all sin. So I guess you're referring to the other, through other man came righteousness. Is that what you're referring to? Tim 00:09:02 Yes. Yes. Mark 00:09:04 Jesus Christ, Tim 00:09:06 <laugh>. So that's two people. But let's talk about the Adams situation for a minute. and I mean, let's tie this to something in today's, political world. 200 years ago, Americans owned slaves and there are people today that believe we should pay reparations to their ancestors for what our ancestors, ancestors did. Because of what Adam did, we are still being held accountable for something we didn't do. Does that seem unfair? I I'm kind of, Yeah, right? I mean, to me that seems kind of unfair. I didn't go do that. Mark 00:09:44 Well, I, I just wanna say, I don't want to get into the poli political side of things. I'm gonna flesh out that illustration a little more, but I don't want it to sound political. But I'll just say this. If we're going to pay everybody on a national level, on a state level, on a personal level, if we're going to monetarily try to make reparations for every wrong thing we've done against somebody, we owe a lot of people a lot of money. <laugh>. You know what I'm saying? I owe my wife money, I owe my kids money, I owe, you know, and I don't mean to trivialize slavery and all that. I, that's why I don't like going into the political side of things. But we, we are in debt because of our sin and, and, and against God above all. That's one of the reasons we need grace. Cuz we all, we can't make reparations to God. Yeah, Can't we? Tim 00:10:42 But I didn't do anything. Adam did it. Why is it, why is it being counted accountable to me? Well, Mark 00:10:48 Well you did do something too though, Tim. Tim 00:10:50 Well, yeah, I've done something of my own and that, that I'll take, you know, in, in certain circumstances, take, my responsibility for it. But I didn't do what Adam did. But when I was born, you're telling me because of Adam, I was already sinful. Ajai 00:11:03 So I think the point of unfairness, you know, it is, unfair to the guys, you know, who are born, to Adam. Like the analogy, you know, I always go back to, I think a good analogy for sin is deceased, right? So if somebody has a genetic disease that's running in the family, right? It goes to the kids and kids and kids, and that's how it is. So we inherited this disease called sin, from Adam. So that is a reason, right? You know, the gospel also makes sense, you already alluded to it, right? So what Adam did is unfair, and we are unfairly, punished right, by the death. But at the same time, you know what law Jesus did, the salvation, the way salvation also comes in a much more unfair way, right? So to speak, we are saved by what Lord Jesus did. So if you look at the big picture, yes, you know, if you look at just one side of things, yes, it is unfair. But if you look at both sides of the coin, the way we are saved, you know that unfairness is, actually overridden and overpowered by the greater unfairness of the righteousness of Lord Jesus Christ given to us freely. Mark 00:12:19 I I like the way you put that Ajai, and it's spurred of thought in my head that everybody demands justice. Everybody wants fairness. But wait a minute, are you sure that's what you really want? Yeah. Is justice and fairness? Because what if you get what's fair to you? Then you're going to have judgment on you that, you know, that's a word that comes from justice. We want justice when it benefits us, when we feel we've got something common that is true. Ajai 00:12:50 I think that goes back to the point we are discussing, right? Many people do not realize that they have a problem called sin and death first reason, or they have sinned by the inheritance that, they got, right, The sin they, they inherited from Adam, but also in our actions also with sin, right? We actually commit some sinful actions that are, that have caused damage to others. So we are punished not only for, Adams sin, but also like Mark is saying that for our actual sins also we are accountable. But, so that is a key point we are talking about, right? So we all have a problem called sin. And when we don't realize this, right, that's when we demand for justice. But when we realize that, you know, we are all under sin and the wages of sin is death, we will stop demanding fairness and, and justice. It's actually the opposite, right? It's called mercy. Mercy is something, you know, you give to people when they deserve punishment. We are actually a pardoning them of the punishment and, giving them grace. So that's what is mercy. So when somebody is truly convinced of their sin, instead of demanding justice, they will actually plead for mercy. Mark 00:14:08 One one little addendum I wanna put to this conversation is that this is probably the most you're gonna hear the three of us talk about sin like an entire episode, because sin is not the main focus of the gospel. Grace, the love of God for us is the main focus of the gospel. But without that understanding of the foundation of, of sin, and that we're all sinners, we we're never gonna need a savior. Yeah. Why would we go to Christ? So that's why we're talking about it today. I just don't want people to get the idea that that's the whole focus of the Christian life is our sin and calling out everybody else's sin. It is not at all. Tim 00:14:55 I agree with that completely, but I am gonna say a few more things on the top. At one, at some points in my life, I felt like the life I lived before I found Christ, and even to some extent the life before I found grace was in sometimes in some ways unforgivable. That what I had done was too far, too much. And yet I hadn't done as, as bad or as worse as some people I could point to in history or in the newspapers or whatnot. But I still felt like I knew I was dirty, and I knew that I could not be, I, I couldn't come to God. All my church experience had led me to believe that I had to clean myself up and straighten myself out so I could become a Christian. And I just hit points in my life where I knew I could not in any way, shape or form reach that goal. And I know there are people out there gonna be listening to us right now who go, Oh, you know, God doesn't want me. But this is where grace becomes so important and I'm gonna, let me take 30 more seconds here or or less if I can help it. There are people in the Bible who were beloved by God, David, Paul, and I'm just gonna grab one from each testament. these people were murderers. These people were actively against God. Paul hunted down Christians, and yet God still loved them and, and wanted them and knew what he could do with to and for them. You can't out, you can't out bad God's ability to forgive you as long, you know, as long as once you come to him, you do surrender. That's why grace is so important. It doesn't matter, Mark 00:16:45 You know, Tim, you're, you're your experience of thinking that you needed to clean yourself up before you came to Christ is different than mine. It was after I came to Christ that then I had to clean myself up. Tim 00:17:02 Mark, I'm not gonna, I was, I was just talking about pre, but you're right. Afterwards. Afterwards, the Christians that came after me like, Well, you can't do this and you can't do that. Oh my goodness. Mark 00:17:13 Yeah. I mean, in some ways, just as far as sin went, I was less guilty and having more fun before I became a Christian because I didn't truly understand the gospel of grace. And I, and I and I started trying to do it, and of course failing and feeling terrible all the time. So in some ways you were more noble than me. You felt bad before you became a Christian <laugh>. You had, you had an earlier, an earlier. Tim 00:17:43 No, no, no, no. I just, because it was up till that point did I realize, okay, God has cleaned me. And then the Christians came and said, Yeah, now you gotta keep yourself clean. Oh man, Mark 00:17:54 I don't understand why people who knew they couldn't do it well enough to be saved after their Christians thought they could do it well enough to somehow gain a holiness righteousness, whatever word you wanna put on that, that may Ajai 00:18:08 Yeah, by the way, I could easily tell Tim is more noble than you, Mark. So Mark 00:18:14 That goes without saying <laugh>. And that's, that's, that's called the gift of discernment that you, Tim 00:18:20 No, come on, You're both killing me. And we can't let this get out like that. I am I'm not Paul the worst of sinners, but I might be in the top 10. I'm just saying. Ajai 00:18:28 Yeah. So at that point I said, you know, I just want to quickly visit. Yeah. Mark, you know, that point is, that's a great point, right? You know, our, you know, we don't want, our intention of talking about sin is not to make people sin focused. And, that's a great point. and one of the reasons, you know, we also, want to talk about this, right? The core problem of humanity is, unless you realize, you know, when you realize that we are sinners, and even though we are sinners, God, God loves us in our sinful state, right? That gives us more appreciation for God's love. So for a sinner who knows, he's a absolute worst sinner, right? But Christ loved them in their sinful state and still Christ received them. You know, that gives so much more appreciation then to God's love, than people who think, you know, I'm okay. Yeah, I understand Christ's dead for me. I'm, I'm okay. Maybe I need Christ's death. But I'm not saying they will not be saved, but the appreciation of God's love is much more when we realize that, when we were still sinners, Christ died for us. And in fact, the Bible also talks about that, right? So in Roman chapter 5, it says, chapter Roman, chapter 5 from verse 5, I am reading now, Hope does not disappoint because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. And verse 6, for when we were still without strength in due time, Christ died for the ungodly, for scarcely, for righteous. Man will one die. Yet perhaps for a good man, someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love towards us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. So this is actually one of my favorite scriptures. It says, God demonstrates his own love towards us while we were still sinners. Christ died for us. So the point is, you know, for somebody like Tim is saying, if somebody, you know, no matter what kind of sin you committed, how bad it may be, right? You can be assured that God loves you still, and you can be assured that Christ's blood is powerful enough to wash away even the worst of the sins. So that's also one of the reasons we talk about sin. Mark 00:20:51 That's a great point, Ajai. Let me, let me just hang out on that point for a second. And in some ways, when you think about it, the worst, our worst sin is, like I say, we were having a, a contest who had the worst sin, The whoever has that worst sin, that just means that the power and the love of Christ is even more mind blowing. You know, I always tell people, just imagine the worst thing you've ever done in your life and realize that, that at that moment, as, as Ajai said, the Bible says that we are enemies of God before we come to him. we're dead. We're dead in our transgression at that moment, when you did your worst thing, Christ said, Yes, I will go to the cross for him. Or, or, and one other, one other point that really I think, expounds this point is that it's not only that in our sin and deadness and being an enemy of God, did Christ die, die for us because of the great love for God. But then you have to go the opposite direction and say, Who is this God? And what does he like that's forgiving all this stuff? He's holy, he's pure, He is absolute light with no darkness. He's majestic and sovereign, omniscient, omnipotent. When you, when you take that context and realize this is the one who's forgiving us, his enemies, that just blows it up. Ajai 00:22:25 So that also explains the blood of Lord Jesus, right? So God is holy and perfect, right? And we are sinners. How can a God justify a sinner? Right? That's where the blood of Jesus comes into play. Lord Jesus, the perfect man ever to walk on earth, right? He sure is perfect blood as an atonement for our sin. And that's how, even though we are sinners, even though God is holy, the bridge is the lord Jesus Christ through his blood, even though we are sinners, we are accepted freely. Tim 00:22:55 Okay? So to this point, honestly, I think we've been talking about our pre salvation selves, No matter how bad we were, we can come to Jesus, we can be forgiven, and we can approach the throne in, in robes of white and, you know, in splendor and covered by the blood of Jesus. What happens after that? And I'm, I don't, this is kind of an indictment on the church today, and I don't mean to like come down on anybody, but how many times are we taught that, well, yeah, you were forgiven when you came to Jesus in your salvation, but now, now you gotta pull yourself up by your bootstraps and produce fruit. You have to do this, you have to do that. And it's, while it's not necessarily couched in the phrases of you're a sinner anymore, because Paul says, We're not sinners, we're saints. Once we have re received Christ, we have cast off the old man. We're a new creature, we're a new creation. So we're no longer sinners, we're saints. But the church doesn't teach us that. The church says now, now you gotta really buckle down. And that's where I think so many people go, Wait, I just found all this great forgiveness and, and light. I've enlightened my load. I'm, I'm, I'm free and I'm, but now the church is going, Yes, but you have to, and that is just to me a killer message because it doesn't matter how many times I went to church after I was saved, there was a seven point series on how to be a better husband and I would dedicate myself for those seven weeks to being a better husband. But the next, the next week, it was all of a sudden a series on how to be a better workman. And oh, you know, I couldn't keep up A, B, I never got any of 'em right. And C, I always felt defeated. And after a while, it literally drove me from the capital C Church. And it drove me to deep diving into what the Bible said and what grace was. And this is a, this is to me what has become my new identity. Ajai 00:25:10 You think, you think that goes back to, you know, I think, before we there a problem why it is. So I think, we also need to understand, by what gospel is sinner is saved. You know, we talked about we all are sinners, but how is a saved? I think the problem we see, see in the church is very closely related to, the salvation, salvation message or the gospel that is generally preached to the sinners. So I think they're closely related. You know, I don't know if you want to talk about that today are in a later, session. But just to tee it up, right? When we talk about salvation, we talked about a sinner like we all are sinners, we cannot save ourselves. So how is the sinners saved? I think that's where in most of the churches or most of the preaching when it comes to salvation, right? They put some conditions to salvation. Okay? You are a sinner before you're saved or before Christ can receive you, right? You have to clean up your life. Like, Tim, you were saying before, pre salvation, they just don't say know, Christ receives you freely without any works. They say, you know, you have to try to obey, you have to clean up yourselves, you have to repent, you have to do restitution. So there are at least one or two conditions that are put to our salvation and that carries forward into their Christian life also because they are thinking that, you know, I am saved based on certain things I did. Now I have to keep my salvation based on what I do. But I think, you know, when there is clarity on what salvation message is and a sinner is saved absolutely without any conditions, that's when I think, you know, that also carries forward into our Christian life also. Tim 00:27:01 Amen. And I will tell you, I do want to dig in that further in another session, but Mark, what do you have to say to this so far? Mark 00:27:08 I've had a thought floating around in my head that I've been chewing on and kind of wordsmithing a little bit, since our last conversation. We talked about the fact that when we are forgiven at salvation and our sins are completely removed from us as far as the east is from the west, but we're not just saved to neutral. We're not just like taking, like I get a picture of God up there holding a slate, like a portable chalkboard, and all our sins are written on it, all the sins before we became a Christian. And when Christ died for us, he took an eraser and and erased them all off. And now we got a clean slate. Okay? But now you better not start putting sins on that slate again, you know? But that's not what it is. Because what happened was after Christ erased all those sins off of that slate, he wrote in the righteousness of God or another way of looking it, well, a better way of looking it is after he erased our sins, he took that slate and he chucked it into the bottom of the deepest ocean because we are not under that system anymore. Tim 00:28:24 So you're saying he died for all of my sins up to my salvation, and then some Mark 00:28:31 Once for all, every, every sin past, present, and future. He knew 'em all ahead of time. Tim 00:28:37 So he died 2000 years ago, not just to get me up to the age of 42, where I discovered the correct gospel message, but every sin that I might commit between that and when I die, I'm clean because, because I can't sin no more. Mark 00:28:55 That's absolutely, Well, no, well you can't sin against him anymore because he's taken that slate and thrown it away and said, this is my beloved son and him. I am well pleased as Christ is in the world. So are you. Ajai 00:29:09 Are In fact, that is so true. Mark and really, really great point, right? And when we dig deeper, right, and we understand what happens at salvation, I think, that also brings much more clarity. So, Bibles says right in, Roman, sorry, in Cor second Corinthians, chapter 5, verse 21, he knew laws sin became sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. So what happened is a transaction at the cross, and it's an irreversible final transaction. So at the cross, Lord Jesus took all of us in upon himself and he gives us all of his righteousness to us. That's what happened at the cross. It's a irreversible one time transaction, right? It's not, God is not doling out forgiveness on a daily basis, or we are not becoming righteous on a daily basis. But it's a one time, one final transaction that happened at the cross. Jesus took all of us sin and he gives all our righteousness. In fact, if he did not become righteous at the cross, we couldn't be saved at all. If you look at the Old Testament, I think we'll go into the some other time, but, the Bible says in Romans 10:5, for Moses writes about a righteousness, which is of the law, a man who does these things shall live by them. So what it is saying is in the Old Testament, you know, first you have to keep the law and you had to prove yourself to be righteous. And then as a reward, you get life as a gift. So all of this happened at our salvation. Exactly right. So at salvation, what we are saying is, like you said, we are not only forgiven of our sins, but we are also given as a gift of life of Jesus Christ himself, the gift of resurrection life. And we could not be given the gift of life unless we are made righteous. So the order of things is all our sins are removed, right? Jesus took our sins. And the second step is we are gifted the gift of righteousness. And because of that righteousness, now we are qualified to receive the life of Christ. So all these three things happened at the cross and through the resurrection, and these are irreversible transactions. So I think once we understand that, we do not ask these kind of questions, you know, that seem to be more common sense based, but not scriptural. Tim 00:31:43 So when Christ died once for all, he meant for all, not all people, but all people, and all the things they did wrong, and every past press and future, cuz he died 2000 years ago, He didn't die for me up to the point of my salvation. He died for me in my entire life. Ajai 00:32:05 Yeah. But it says all, it's all of sins for all people and for all time. Mark 00:32:13 You know, you're reminding me of a really good scripture that says blessed is the man whose sin, the Lord will never count against him. So it just, it just destroys the idea of God up there with a slate keeping score before you're a Christian and then after you're a Christian. And the, and it's even worse after you're a Christian, Tim 00:32:38 He threw away the old one, but he started a new one. Mark 00:32:40 Yeah. And now the sin values double <laugh> like in jeopardy. Tim 00:32:45 Thank you Alex. And I'll take, I'll take my mortal sins for 200. Mark 00:32:49 I'll take hellfire for a thousand, please. <laugh>. No, that's been, that's been thrown away. In fact, it says that God has chosen in Christ to remember our sins no more. Not only does he not count 'em against us, he chooses not to remember 'em. So there's no reason for you to remind him of your sin because he paid a huge price to not even remember it. Tim 00:33:11 I, I laugh not because I find it comical, but because I find it so freeing and it's so good to be able to throw off the yolks of bondage that the law kept me in for so long. Ajai 00:33:23 Yeah. In fact, What I said before, unless all of our sin are forgiven, we couldn't be saved because, you know, sometimes, you know, we do not have an understanding. We think, you know, at salvation all our passions are forgiven. And then God saves us, He gives us life. And now it's up to us not to sin. But the Bible says the wages of sin is death right after being saved. If you sin, and if the wages of of sin are still upon you, right, you will die immediately, then you are to go through this process of getting your sins forgiven again and again. You get life, then you sin again, then you die again. So that's not how you know our salvation works. The way Lord appointed salvation is once and for all. He removes all our sins and once and for all He makes his righteous. And once and for all, he gives us a gift of aternal a life. Mark 00:34:13 And a great paradox is that once you understand this gospel of grace and let go of trying to gain acceptance, sanctification, holiness, there's a lot of big words, cleanness by working and by not sinning, what you're gonna find isn't what scripture tells us is sin is no longer our master because we're no longer under the law. It's slightly counterintuitive. But once we stop trying to uphold that under our own power of ourselves, you find over time, naturally as as Christ becomes your focus, that you can look at your life. I have way less sin in my life now since I stop trying to get rid of sin in my life. Yeah. Because I'm focusing on something better. Yeah. It's like that old thing telling somebody, try not to think of a white elephant. Well they're gonna immediately think of a white elephant <laugh>. You know what I'm saying? It's, it's like when you take your focus off of doing it, it's almost like getting your cake and eating it too. Tim 00:35:20 You got that backwards mark. And cuz I'm a semanticist. It's eating your cake and having it too <laugh>. No, but really hon honestly, sorry, bad joke. That's not the saying bad. No, no, that's not the saying. But the saying got it backwards. What I wanted to know was why is grace so important? Because we have inherited a sin nature. Because, you know, God wanted to take the law off of us. He brought the law to show us we couldn't keep it and couldn't be righteous unto ourselves. So he bring, brought Jesus to take the law off of us and give us freedom for, for freedom. Christ set us free. And these are the things that I wanted to bring out today. I wanted to, to talk about why is grace important. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna say that next, next time we get together, we're going to delve further. and I mean this has been fun. I've really enjoyed it. Anyone got any last words before we sign off, Mark? Mark 00:36:16 Well, I wanna come back to our definition of grace. Your question was why is grace so important? And I think the answer is held within the very definition of what grace is. Grace is the unearned, undeserved, unmarried favor of God. The reason grace is so important is it's the only way to ever get the favor of God there. Ajai 00:36:42 Yeah. Believe it or not. Exactly. I was going to say the same exact thing. You know, before we answer why grace, why we need grace. You know, we need to define what grace is. So thank you, Mark for that. So I think just to summarize right, you know, what we are saying is we all have sinned, right? We cannot save ourselves by anything we do. And the only way, only logical way to be saved is if someone saves us apart from our works, apart from our doing. And that's, that's exactly what grace is. The unearned, undeserved, unmarried favor of God. God out of his love for us, right? He sent his son Jesus Christ, He died in our place. He forgive our sins, He watched away our sins and took away our sins. And now he gives us a gift of righteousness and then thereby he gives us eternal life. So all of this is by grace. And that is, that is, that's why grace is important because we couldn't save ourselves. But God loves us too much to leave us in that condition. And therefore, he, by his grace, he saves us. Tim 00:37:47 Well, I always want to be the guy that sums it up, but I think Ajai just did it so beautifully and I don’t wanna step on it. Guys, it's been a great discussion tonight. Thank you so much and I look forward to next time. Tim 00:38:05 We would like to thank you for listening to the unveiling. We hope you have enjoyed it enough to consider subscribing. We welcome your questions, comments, and feedback. You can reach us via email at the unveiled gospel@yahoo.com or find our Facebook page at the unveiling podcast for Ajai, Mark, and myself. God bless and we'll talk to you next time.