Episode 2 - Can I Fix Myself?

Tim 00:00:22 So last time we got together, we were talking about why we needed grace. What's, why is it so? Why do we need grace? What's so important about it? And we talked about the sinful nature we inherited from the Garden of Eden, from Adam and Eve, and, then we're basically all sinful. So, I looked at that and I thought about it for a while and I said, Well, why can't I help myself then? I mean, God came along and said, You guys are all sinners, but here's, here are the only 10 rules you gotta follow to stay outta trouble. So, if I can follow those 10 rules, I can be righteous, right? So why can't I help myself? Ajai 00:01:01 Yeah, Mark, Mark 00:01:03 Well, I'll just start out right now that makes everybody, everybody fail at this method. And that is that the first one is to correct me if I'm wrong, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your strength, is that number one, Tim 00:01:21 I thought it was no false idols. Mark 00:01:23 Well, no other God before this God, but it's loved Lord your God. Ajai 00:01:27 Yeah. That's a sum total of the law. That's what the Lord said. Mark 00:01:29 Yeah. So not one of us does that, you know, does, especially people that don't know the Lord and are trying to say, Well, I'm a good guy. Well, wait a minute, if you're going by those 10, you're definitely not doing that one. Cuz you don't, you don't have a relationship with God and none of us, no matter how close our relationship is and how often, I mean we can't even do that with our wives, can we? Much less the God of all creation? Yeah. Ajai 00:02:00 Yeah. I want to go to the scriptures, you know, that addresses both the last time what we discussed, that we all are sinners and also, you know, why we cannot be justified by our works. So, in Romans chapter 3, starting from verse 9, right from the first two chapters, Paul takes time to explain that, you know, both Gentiles and Jews, everyone is under sin. And then he kind of summarizes in verse 9, talking about Jews, he says, you know what, then are we better than they not at all for we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they all are under sin. Then he goes on to say, you know, “there is none righteous. No, not one. There is none who understands. There's none who seeks after God. They all have turned aside. They have become together, become unprofitable. There is none who does good. No, not one. Their throat is an open tomb with their tongues. They have practiced deceit. The poison of asps is under their lips, whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shut blood destruction and misery are in their ways and the way of peace. They're not known. And the fear of God is there is no fear of God before their eyes”. And now he goes on to say right in verse 19. “Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world may become guilty before God. Therefore, by the deeds of the law, no flesh shall be justified in his sight for by the law's knowledge of sin”. So, Paul is addressing, you know, multiple things at the same time. Right? You know, First he is establishing everyone is a sinner. And then he's saying, you know, law is given to show that we are sinners by the law is knowledge of sin. But you know, we have misinterpreted the purpose of the law. We are thinking that by the works of the law we can become righteous. But Paul is saying that, that you know, law is not given so that we can become righteous. Law is given so that we can, so that you know, we all know that we are sinners and law is given to condemn us. So, you know, that which condemns us can never justify us. Right? Obviously, you know, when you're speeding on a highway, another cop catches you and he gives you a ticket. The ticket is given to condemn us. You cannot go to the court and say, “Hey, I did nothing”. This ticket is a proof. That's how foolish we are when we use the law to justify ourselves by the law is knowledge of sin. And the other example is, you know, a pig can never act like a lamb. Right? A sinner can never be righteous. You know, there's nothing in us that can do righteousness. So, when we sinned, we lost the life. Right? You know, death and sin started reigning over us. So, a slave of sin cannot commit righteousness. So that is also one of the reasons we can never become righteous by our works. Mark 00:05:08 And, I would like to add to that, to the people listening to this right now, it's not that we're saying to you, Hey, you're not a nice person. You know what? You may be a great person. You may serve down at the food pantry, a loving father, a loving mother. You may be a great person on human on, on a human level. The problem isn't, I mean, it is us as well, but the standard is the perfection of God. Yeah. And we can't do it. It's not that we're terrible. We're saying you're a terrible person and that's why you need a Savior. We're saying that no human being is good enough to reach that perfect standard. That's another way of looking at it. Tim 00:05:56 Well, it seems like the giving of the law was a self-defeating thing. It, He gave us the law to show us how to be righteous and knowing that there was no way we could ever keep it. So, we were set up to fail, it seems like to me. Mark 00:06:11 Yeah, that's absolutely right. And “why?” is the question, Ajai Ajai 00:06:16 Yeah. You know, we are set up to fail because, you know, if a person who has cancer, right, if they refuse to acknowledge that they have cancer they will never accept the cure. So, law is like a mirror, right? Like the scanning machine that shows a person that they have cancer. So, without the law, you know, people are thinking they're all right. You know, they're in denial state. But you know, when the law comes, when the law puts forward the requirements of the law, you know, which is perfection as, Mark said, then we realize that, you know, until we, give an attempt to keep the law, we think, you know, we all are good. But again, you know, law is not like, you know, “do this, do that”. You know, most of the time we fall back on, rituals. Right? You know, going to church, keeping the Sabbath right, you know, washing your clothes and dunking in a river. That is not the law. The heart of the law is, you know, you love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and you love your neighbors as yourselves. Right? How many of us can truly say that we have always all our life loved the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, and mind, and we loved our neighbors as ourselves. So, when that standard is put up against us, right? You know, we immediately know that we are falling short. And when we are falling short, you know, that's when we realize the need for a savior. And then we go to Jesus, who is our salvation and who can give the righteousness, you know, that we don't have. Mark 00:07:48 And I would add the purpose of life, the very reason we were created isn't so that we can fulfill the law perfectly. We were created to belong to God, belong to Christ, not to be these perfect, you know, through the law. You know, that's not the purpose of life is to maintain that law. The purpose of life is not to do good deeds. That's not the purpose of it. Those are things that come out of the purpose. The purpose is to love Jesus and be loved by Him. And then His spirit works good things out of us and blesses other people. Ajai 00:08:25 Yeah, that's a great point. Mark, you know, law is not the end, like you said. You know, the Bible clearly says, you know, in Romans chapter 10 4 right. You know, it says, “Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness”. So, our end goal is Lord Jesus Christ and communion with him. So, the point is, you know, law is simply again, given to show us that, you know, we are sinners, and we don't have the nature of God. Neither we do have the life of God. So, the reason we need the life of God to have the fellowship and the communion with God. It's like, you know, we have pets, right? So, we love our pets, to death, right? But at the same time, animals do not have the same life human beings have. So, we cannot have the fellowship at the same level as you and I can have fellowship, sharing our thoughts, ideas, and showing our love for each other, right, we cannot communicate with pets at the same level. So similarly, you know, God wants to give us His own life to us so that we can be the family of God. In fact, Bible says, you know, we are called and to fellowship with the Father and that of the Lord Jesus Christ. And law is simply showing that, you know, we don't have the life of Christ because we are lost it by sinning. And now when we come to Jesus, right, we have this new life and we become Jesus like Jesus, right? And the end goal is not keeping the law, but our end goal is communion and fellowship with Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and of course with one another. Tim 00:10:01 So I'm hearing some objections in my head already to this, to this plan. God gave the Israelites through Moses the law. Of course, man had to have one up that and add another 600 plus to that. But so all those people who couldn't follow the luck, Jesus, God said, Here are the laws, and if you can't fulfill them, you're condemned. And to me, if I'm condemned, I'm having to face a punishment. I'm going to hell. Jesus didn't come along for a long time. What happened to all those people between the giving of the law and Jesus dying on the cross? I can hear people going, That's not fair. Mark 00:10:40 Well, one thing, first of all, I'd add is that God is fair. So even if we were not able to come up with that answer right here and now, which I believe we can, we know that they would be treated fairly, but we also know God is merciful. And I think we had this discussion last week, we don't want fairness, <laugh>. Cause if we get what's fair, then we're in big trouble. But God is a merciful God. And Ajai, I'm gonna let you take it from here because I've heard you talk about it before, and you have a good handle on that. Ajai 00:11:18 Yeah, Tim, so pardon me, but I can you repeat your question? I didn't fully understand. I'm sorry about that. Tim 00:11:25 God gave us a set of laws that He knew we could never create, or that's great, that we could never live up to. And as a result, because we couldn't keep the law as it stands now, we can't be saved because we're condemned by the law. Ajai 00:11:42 Yeah. Tim 00:11:43 So, and then it wasn't until Jesus came right, that He fulfilled the law, and that was no longer our judge in jury that, you know. So, what happened between the time that the law was given, and Jesus came and, and fulfilled that law, all of those people in the middle who were trying to fulfill the law and couldn't, trying to love God to by doing the right things, they, if they commit one sin, they stand condemned. It's, you know, I can't imagine God being that cruel. So, what happened to them? Ajai 00:12:17 Yeah. So, I guess if I understood you correctly, right, you know, people who are under the law from the point the law was given and till the point Jesus came, you know, they, they basically, you know, they didn't hear the gospel right? Like we did. So, they are under the pure line of how are they saved? I think, that's a question, right? So, well, I guess it's an interesting question, right? if you go to Hebrew chapter 11, right? It talks about, faith, like it's called the Hall of Faith. So, there are so many people that were under the law starting from people, sorry, so many people that were, mentioned as, as people of faith starting all the way from Noah right before the law. And it goes all the way to Abraham, and then it goes to David who are under the law, right? And many, many people who are under the law before the law and after the law. So again, I think, even though the law was given, if you look at, the people of Israel, right? You know, when, they were brought out of the land of Egypt, so before the law was given, you know, they knew the grace of God, right? They knew the miracles of God and they knew the love of God, and they were led by the love of God into the wilderness. But, you know, they did not simply, you know, when, the lord gave the law, right? You know, if the Israelites, they simply, even before they heard the law, they said, we will keep it. But instead of doing that, you know, instead of us presuming that the strength to keep the law, if they simply, you know, told, Oh God, I cannot do that, but there's no way I can keep the law. I'll be saved. Only if you save me, otherwise I'll not be saved. If they took that attitude, right, you know, probably, you know, nobody would've been even under the law because they would've directly gone to grace. But they did not do that. So, I think the point is, even under the law, there are people who realize that I cannot keep the law and I have to be saved by mercy of God, otherwise I cannot be saved. And the classic example is the Psalm of David, right? Most of the Psalms of David are like, he never actually said, you know, I kept the law. He says in sin, my mother consumed me. You know, unless you save me, I cannot be saved. So, he took that attitude. So many people, even under the law, they realized that, you know, I cannot do it. And they trusted in the law. So, the faith was operational, even under the law, even though, even though you know, it was not clear like us. And even though Lord Jesus Christ, was not fully manifested. But I think the Old Testament people are saved looking forward to the Messiah. And we are saved looking backwards to Christ, but either old or new, everyone is saved through Jesus Christ and through faith. Mark 00:15:10 And I would also add to that, I have a problem with the very nature of the question, Tim, nothing personal. It's a nice academic exercise. But the person asking that, they're usually asking that because someone is telling them what the gospel is, and they're raising it as an objection. Well, I don't know a hundred percent what happened to those people. I know the character of God, his love, his mercy, his grace, his justice and fairness. But you have heard it, and that you're responsible for that. Now, you know what I'm saying, and I don't mean that in a threatening way, but it's just people use that as a smoke screen, sometimes. They try to find difficult situations to somehow disprove the Bible or the gospel or God's character. How could there be evil in the world if there's a loving God? Yeah. And then I would, I would say, hey, how could there be love in the world if there's not, if you want to use that rationale, right? So, it's just, to me, it's one of those questions that's got a nice academic thing to it, but the point is, the person we're talking to, we're telling them how much God loves them and that Christ died for them and wants them. And if you wanna try and find the worst case scenario to disprove it, well, Tim 00:16:36 So, so I admit to that being sort of, what I would call a catechism class question. I don't know if you guys had to sit through catechism class like I did, but, at a certain age for two years, every Sat, you know, two Saturdays a month or whatever it was, you'd go to this class where they'd teach you doctrine and, and all, you know, the history of the Bible and all this stuff. And, and of course as 12-year-olds, we, you know, it's like, well if, if I did this and this happened, and would that be, you know, we were always looking for the loopholes and the stuff like that. But I, but it is a question that believe it or not, does come up. And I've heard it more than once on, on several grace boards. Yeah, when they're talking about, and it's what's one of those stumbling blocks for people? It's like, let's get this outta the way. There is a nature to God. It is love in mercy, and there is faith. And I think we've described a couple of different ages in our own conversation right now, we're in the age of grace, you know, that's after, you know, after Christ died, we are now living under grace. And prior to that, there was law and faith. And prior to that there was Eden. You know, I mean, so all these different pieces we've talked about, there's still one God, he's the same yesterday, today and forever. And that doesn't change. And I don't think he, I don't think He gave us the law just to see how many people He could drop into hell for kicks. Ajai 00:18:02 Yeah. Definitely not. Yeah. I also just wanted to add, you know, in the gospels, when, you know, Lord Jesus, actually, it's a story or actually a real incident. He talks about a Pharisee, right? He goes up to the temple and then there was a sinner. A tax collector goes next to him. And the Pharisee’s prayer is like, Oh, I'm not like that. You know, I, I've been fasting, I've been doing this, I've been doing that, you know, thank God I'm not like that sinner, right? That both are under the law at that time. And the Pharisee says that, Sorry, the sinner says that, you know, have mercy on me. I'm a sinner. And the Lord Jesus says that, you know, that man is justified. So, under the law or grace, you know, the way of justification is the same. You go to God and say, Have mercy on me, I'm a sinner. And you'll be saved under the law of grace, because this incident happened under the law. So, from that, we can say that, you know, even under the law, people are saved by the mercy of God, simply acknowledging that I'm a sinner, and, and then, asking God to have mercy. And the sacrifices of the temple also point to the salvation of Lord Jesus Christ. So, when I, they sin, right, you know, they did not say they did not claim the law, or they did not claim the work. So, I kept the law, therefore, Lord forgive me, or they did not say, God, I'll do more work. Forgive me. No, they didn't say that. They took a sacrifice. They took an offering to the temple that is pointing to our lords Christ. So even in the old temporary Old Testament, people are saved by the sacrifice of our lord Jesus Christ. Tim 00:19:45 So you brought up an interesting point about the Sadducees and the Pharisees. When Christ came, you would've thought that they would've been his best friends, cuz they've been doing his work for so long. But in all the passages I read, He picks on them the worst. He really gives them what for? And, and I'm gonna go out on a limb here and propose the reason why, and you guys can tear me up, it's because they've pretended to keep the whole law. They, because they nobody can keep the whole law. So, what they were doing was really self-righteousness and self-justification. And they never could see that in themselves, despite what they knew about themselves on the inside. They never could admit, oh yeah, I can't keep all the law either. Ajai 00:20:29 Yeah, that is so true. Yeah, that's so true, Tim. But Mark, go ahead. Mark 00:20:33 I was gonna say, I think that's an aspect of it because they were hypocrites. But then I'll add to that anybody who's trying to keep the law is a hypocrite. Because we can't do it. And so that's, you know, the Apostle Paul that we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord. And when you're preaching the law, you're preaching yourself. If you're telling other people, here's what you need to do, here's religion. This is what it means. You need to go to church on Sundays. You need to give your ten percent and you need to read so much by …, they're giving them all these rules, and yet they know that they're not doing them perfectly either. I would say that's def that hypocrisy was one aspect of it that I think upset him. And I think another upset thing that upset him is they're supposed to be the leaders of the rest of the nation. It's their job to help the rest of the people, and He said, you just tie up loads on their back and don't even help lift a finger to help them. But to me, I think the biggest problem He had with them was the fact that they were trying to gain acceptance and salvation and righteousness by the works of the law. Just like one of my favorite scriptures says,” What then shall we say that the Gentiles, meaning all people beside the Jews, are the gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it a righteousness that is by faith. But the people of Israel who pursued the law as the way of righteousness have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling block. To me, that was the biggest problem that he had with him beside the fact that they were trying to do that and doing it hyp, you know, in a very hypocritical way, pretending like they were doing it purposely coming up with loopholes and thinking they're better than everybody else. That's bad enough. But they had the whole system wrong. That it's not by works, it's by faith. Ajai 00:22:51 Yeah, I agree. I think many of them are hypocrite, but there are some, honest believers in the law as well. Like, the best example is apostle Paul, right? So, he said he was a Pharisee of Pharisees and when it comes to the law, he was blameless. So obviously he was not lying because he wrote that in the scriptures after he was saved. So, there are some people following the love of ignorance, ignorance also, you know, that's, those are the people I think they'll be most benefited by the gospel because the hypocrites are hypocrites anywhere. Right. You know, it's very hard for them to, to show them their self-righteousness. But people who are genuinely trying to keep the law, they are the ones you know, that will be liberated when they realize that God does not require you to keep the law. You can be saved freely. I used to be one of those guys. Right. You know, I tried, tried very hard to follow the law, to, to be saved and to be holy, to gain acceptance before God. But, when I realized that, you know, Christ receives sinners just in our state just as we are, that was the best news for me. So, Mark 00:24:01 And were you blameless as far as the Ajai 00:24:03 Law was, I was, in horror because I was not blameless. Right. If I was blameless. Yeah. Mark 00:24:09 Let me ask you this and, and let's, let's chew on this a minute, cuz Paul said, as far as the law, blameless, but I don't think he, he meant he had never broke the law. I think he meant as a Pharisee, as the ceremonial washings and religion and rituals that he did meticulously beyond people his own age that were trying to do the same thing because he went out trying to murder Christians. Yeah. That's not keeping the law about thou shall not kill Ajai 00:24:40 Yeah. I meant to say, I think he was sincerely trying to follow the law. He was not hypocritically following the law. He was trying his best, the best he could to keep the law. And thereby gain God's acceptance. Mark 00:24:51 But we also know at the same time he wasn't happy because he talks about how that whole great passage where he talks about the very things I want to do. Yeah. I don't do, Yeah. The very things that I know I, that I shouldn't do, that I end up doing. I know in my mind that God's law is perfect and good. Yeah. And yet Right all the time, sin and evil are there with me. Yeah. And that's the problem with the law. The law itself is perfect. It's holy and perfect. The problem with the law is us. Yeah. It's, it's what the word they call flesh, which just means all our own desires and, you know, and our own lack of strength and abilities. Yeah. that's the only problem. We're not trying to say the law is bad. Of course, the things in it are good. Thou shall not kill. Who's gonna argue that that's not a good law. Ajai 00:25:51 Right? Yeah. Yeah. Tim 00:25:52 All right, so I see two benefits to the law. And that is to prove to us that you know, the title of the show. Can't I, Can't I help myself? No. I not as far as God is concerned in my righteousness, I cannot help myself. And the law is there to prove that to me by giving me 10 simple things to, to do that I can, that I can't keep all of them. And the second thing, though, I think is that it gives us a good list of things that we should try to do as far as living in the world, for the world, by the world. You know, we have to live in the world. These aren't, these aren't bad things. Not murdering people, honoring your parents, not lying, not coveting. Those are really good things for us to try to attain for our relationships with people here on earth, but it doesn't, by following it, do anything for our salvation or our own righteousness. Cause it was said by even Paul, I believe, the law is good Mark 00:26:49 When used properly. He said, Tim 00:26:52 And I say the proper use of the law is in how we behave with the world, not how we relate to God. Does that make sense? Mark 00:27:02 I would say that it does act as a high moral standard for the world. But I think I would say, I'd have to think on this more. But I would say that that's more for people that don't know the Lord, that don't belong to Christ. It, it's, you know, we use that obviously to create this country and, and they are good things that teach us how to treat each other. But I mean, you could just apply the golden rule all over all of it, you know, which, you know, Christ summed up by saying, Love your neighbors yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. We could have saved all the other laws, because that's kind of a summation. But um, the word I have problem is with, is with trying. These are good things we should try to do, because, you know, in maybe a very surfacy way, we can do them. But Christ himself said, Hey, you know what it says, don't commit adultery, but if you've lust it after a woman in your heart, you've committed adultery. So, I know Ajai points this went out fairly certain cuz he knew that we pretty much all fail at that, you know, as far as the opposite sex goes, and sometimes the same sex, you know. We all fail at that one. So, yeah, I don't know. What do you think about that, Ajai? Ajai 00:28:29 Yeah, Tim, I think, you know, maybe there is a secondary purpose, like you said, right? So, the whole of, America is built on the Judeo Christian law, right? The 10 Commandments. So the government, constitution is derived from the 10 Commandments. So, there are some principles in a way like, you know, the laws are, in the society, right, with sinful people. Laws are required to keep them under control. With the fear of punishment. So, I think it might serve as a secondary purpose, for the sinful people to live without killing each other every day and destroying each other. But the primary purpose of the law in the context of the gospel is to show that we are sinners. There might be a second purpose, but I do not know if that is a primary purpose. So that's what I would say. Mark 00:29:23 I was gonna say, there's nothing in scripture that comes to my mind, I dunno about you guys that states that that's a purpose of it. Tim 00:29:34 No, I didn't have any, any scripture reference in mind when I brought it up that way. I was only, only trying to refer back to the fact that, it has, you know, the Bible says the law is good and the law is holy. And so, I can't imagine that if something is holy, it's only purpose is to show a, a form of condemnation for who we and what we are. Although that's what we need to be pointed out to know that we need grace and Jesus. Mark 00:30:04 Here's the problem with that secondary use. The law can tell you what right and wrong are, but it gives you no power whatsoever to do right and not do wrong. So, I would, I would say just by knowing them, it gives this framework to people of what's right and what's wrong, but it doesn't give 'em the power to do what right is. Look at the government. We built our government on that. How well are they fulfilling the 10 commandments nowadays? Ajai 00:30:38 So yeah, Mark, I think I see your point, but I think, the other aspect is right, you know, in a society, right? If let's say there is no punishment for anything we do, right, then people will be killing people each other and destroying and robbing. So that thing is under control, surely because of fear of going to jail or fear of, you know, getting executed. So that fear. So, this law will not change our hearts. Neither will make us good, but I think that fear of punishment will keep many people from committing the worst things they could otherwise. So, in that sense, [I agree] in that sense it's useful. I think, it's probably helpful. Mark 00:31:17 So it's not really the law, it's the fear of punishment. Fear of Ajai 00:31:21 Punishment, Mark 00:31:21 Yeah. From breaking the law. Ajai 00:31:22 Yeah. Yeah. So, I think there are two sides, right? One is with respect to God, law is always given to show us that we are sinful and we need a heart change. But with regards to one another, it might help treat each other better, mainly because of the fear of punishment. Not because of our hearts are changed by it. So, Mark 00:31:44 So, here's a little point to bounce it off of what you said. And I'm sure there are some people that that's their motive that they say I'm not going to steal because not stealing is really good. I think a lot of people don't steal because they're afraid of not getting caught. Yeah. You know, if they're, if they're given the opportunity to do something or rationalize something. Cuz it depends on what your [Yeah] definition of stealing is, you know, not reporting something on their tax as well. You know what, [Yeah] it was just a few bucks I won playing cards or something, you know? [Yeah] It's, you know, it's still stealing technically by the law. So, I don't just the side issue there. Ajai 00:32:32 Yeah. so we are at our time, but, Tim, there's one more point, right? You know, most of the, we addressed today more from the perspective Judeo Christian perspective, but I think from the other religion and other worldview perspective also, Right? You know, this fact that, you know, we cannot become righteous by anything we do, or we cannot become good by anything we do. Or the other part is we cannot atone for our sins by anything we do. So, most of the world religions are, basically trying to do these two things. Either they try to become righteous to win God favor. So that's one of the reasons, you know, if you look at the eastern religions, right, they do this something called tapas. Tapas. That means you go into the forest, right into a jungle where nobody's there and you're meditating day and night, day and night until you get to a state where you know, you become holy. Right? So you, they try to attain to a level, you know, where they are actually, you know, overcoming sin and reach a level through their own effort, they become righteous. And the other side of the coin is right. You know, what do you do with the, the sins you already committed? So, everybody knows intuitively, you know, the sins are to be punished, right? You know, if you committed sin, especially you did something really bad to someone else, you intuitively know that you have to be punished. So, for that also, you know, they employ many methods like, you know, beating themselves up, punishing them and going around and walking on barefoot, climbing up the hills, dunking in the rivers right to wash over their sins. So, they do these kind of things. So, I think that is one of the first methods. And in fact, in all non-Christian religions, that's the only method available. Ajai 00:34:29 You have to do something. Either there are multiple things they say, right, you know, first is you attain to a state. A better state by your own effort, or you try to wash away your sins by doing penance and restitution and sacrifices and self-infliction of punishment. Or the third thing they try to do is say, Okay, your good work should outweigh your bad works. So, these are the kind of things that are out there in the world, but none of those things can make us righteous. So, we cannot become righteous by anything we do, nor can be atone for our sins by anything we do. Yeah. Tim 00:35:10 That's a double whammy. Ajai 00:35:11 Yeah, that's a double whammy. Yeah. Tim 00:35:13 So Christianity is the only world religion in which our sins have already been atoned for and paid for. [Yeah] Everywhere else you are still required to put in all of this effort in one way or another, whether it's all any of those mention ways you've mentioned. [Yeah] And, and we get to just rest in, you know, we don't have to work, we get to rest in the work that God has already done for us. Mark 00:35:36 Yeah. And, and just to split hairs, which is one of my gift areas, <laugh>, I just as I have a problem with the grace message as a term, as you said, the Christian religion, because all the things that Ajai just, enumerated for us as far as trying to wash away your own sins, attain a higher righteousness, the Christian religion tries to do that too, but that's the differentiation between the gospel, the real gospel, the one true gospel is not a religion. A religion technically, if you look up the definition, definition of that word is a system of rules of do this, don't do that. A systems of beliefs that you have to believe every one of 'em. And, and, and there are just, I sometimes feel like it's the Christian religion that's done more damage to the true gospel than all the other world religions, than atheism has ever done to it. Because they've made people think that what Christ did and who He is something other than it is, it's a subtle lie, and they try to turn it into a religion. Ajai 00:36:57 Yeah, I would agree. Mark, you know, other religions out of ignorance, they didn't have the gospel and all they had was a religion. And in Christianity, instead of having the gospel, they took the gospel and turned it into a religion. You know, that is no different than other religions. Put us back to our own works and our own efforts to become righteous or obtain our salvation. So, I think one thing I just wanted to say is like, you know, we talked about two things, right? You know, we cannot become righteous by anything we do, nor can we atone for our sins by anything we do. And the gospel of grace, the finish the cross of Jesus Christ provides both. It redeems us from our sins and also gives us a gift of righteousness. It basically nullifies our sin sinfulness, and then it adds righteousness to us that is not ours. So that is the beauty of the gospel Mark 00:37:55 And all with the end of loving God and being loved by him. You know, we're talking very legal terms here, atonement and, you know, and righteousness and things like that. Behind it all though is this great love that took care of our problems for us so that we can have fa you know, really in the end face to face, but even in this life, just a deep, unbelievable joy and knowledge and closeness to the living God who loves us with a love that when we understand it just transforms our lives. [Yeah] Ajai 00:38:38 Since, you brought about a splitting of hairs, Mark, you know, I'll also give it <laugh>. I'll also give it a shot. So <laugh>, so you said loving God and being loud by him. So in the order of things, first, Mark 00:38:52 All right, I see where Ajai 00:38:54 You're going. Okay. But, the god's love comes first. And I think I personally feel like, you know, we are made for fellowship with God. Fellowship is simply enjoying God, right? Enjoying the life of God in us and enjoying the fellowship with God and enjoying everybody. So even, you know, I have to love you, I have to love, He is not also kind of a secondary concern. The primary concern is just enjoy God. Right? Enjoy the abundant life that Christ gave Mark 00:39:21 Us. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't mean to put them in a chron. They were meant to be a chronological world. Ajai 00:39:27 I know. I'm just teasing. Mark 00:39:29 No, but that's a good point though, that, that we were created for God to love us, not so that He could cuz He was so needy that He needed to create a bunch of people to love him. You know, does our love please him? Does it bless his heart? Absolutely. And that's a miracle in itself. Ajai 00:39:50 So on that point, right, you know, if we look at, you know, what was, before our creation, right? The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in a family, in a community loving each other. What salvation does is it is inviting us., the by salvation, God invites us into the family of the Trinity. Be part of the Trinity and continue what those three, of course, one God and three persons are doing, are just to continue, just to expand. In fact, Roman said, eight, 32 right? Says it, whom God for you, He also predestined to be conformed to be the image for Lord Jesus Christ, so that he may be the first born of many brethren. So there is Jesus and he's in communion with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Now He want many more children like Jesus who can be added to the family of God and just enjoy the same fellowship, communion and love that the Trinity is already enjoying. So that's what we are created for. Yeah. Tim 00:40:57 Before we go off on too many bunny trails, Ajai, you were already pointing it to clock earlier. So <laugh>, I think what I think <laugh>, I think, I think it's interesting you guys have taken my role on as the English dissection people instead of me <laugh>, I was always the word guy. But now, now the tables have turned. Mark 00:41:16 We've learned from you Tim Tim 00:41:18 <laugh>. So we're gonna stop here for tonight and, we'll just, we'll just pick up from here next time.