Episode 38 - The Focus of the Law

Speaker 1 00:00:07 Hello, and welcome to the unveiling with your hosts, IJ, mark, and Tim three guys discussing the one true gospel. We hope you enjoy today's discussion. Let's dive right in. Speaker 1 00:00:23 Hello and welcome to the unveiling. This is episode 38 and we're calling it well. We call everything pretty much the same thing. It's all about Jesus. But today we're gonna talk about the law versus being filled with the holy spirit and walking in that spirit. Um, I haven't come up with a catchy name yet, but, uh, we, we, we will, before we release it. So anyway, tonight, eh, our usual host sane, Tim and we are without mark tonight. Uh, mark had to address some family business. So we're gonna go ahead and move forward. So AJ, let me say a couple of things and then you can repair that and move forward. But, uh, we're gonna be talking about one of the big differences between the law and the old covenant and the new covenant is the old covenant was very focused on us, ourselves. It comes from a very self point of view. Um, I think you've used the term it's self-conscious while the new covenant is much more fact completely spirit and Jesus focused. So that's a huge difference. And I want to, you know, we're gonna talk about that and maybe a little bit more as we move through tonight's episode. So, and I I've said my, my opening bit, AJ, why don't you get us started? Speaker 2 00:01:44 Yeah, Tim, by way of summary, uh, if I may summarize what you were saying, uh, in a more concise manner, I would say the law makes us self conscious, whereas grace makes us Christ conscious much Speaker 1 00:02:00 Better. Speaker 2 00:02:00 So we would like to kind of dig a little, little deeper into this today and see where it takes us. So it's interesting, right. You know, if you ask an average believer, what is John three 16, right? Everyone says for God, soul of the world that he gave his only begotten and son, but Tim, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but <laugh> can you tell me what all the 10 commandments are? Speaker 1 00:02:28 I don't think I could actually recite all 10 commandments. I can probably, I will pro I know the first one, love the God, your Lord, your God. And I know the third one is respect, your honor, your parents, your father, and your mother. And I know this don't murder to lie. Don't you don't bear false witness. Don't covet your neighbor's rear end. I just don't know what order they come in. And I probably missed three. Speaker 2 00:02:51 I bet. You know, even people who are mentally, uh, rooting for the law and saying that, you know, we are under the law. I bet, you know, they, they cannot recite all the 10 commandments, the things that they're so strongly rooting for. But so I thought, you know, maybe, you know, we can just go all the way back to ex CDU 20 and read the 10 commandments. If you want to read, that would be great. Speaker 1 00:03:14 All right, AJ, uh, I'll be happy to read that forest tonight. Do you want me to stop at each one or just read 'em through? Speaker 2 00:03:21 You can read them through. That's Speaker 1 00:03:23 Cool. Okay. So, uh, Exodus 20, starting at the very beginning and God spoke these words. I am the Lord, your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery, you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven, above or on earth beneath or in the waters below. You should not. You shall not bow down to them or worship them for I the Lord, your God, and made jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents, to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generation of those who love me and keep my commandments. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord. Your God for the Lord will not hold anyone. Guiltless who misuses his name. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy six days, you shall labor and do all your work. Speaker 1 00:04:16 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord. Your God on it. You shall not do any work. Neither you nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servants, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns for in six days, the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them. But he rusted on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy honor, your father and mother, so that you may live long in the land of the Lord. Your God is giving you. You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male or female servant his ox or doki or anything that belongs to your neighbor. That's it? Speaker 2 00:05:08 Yeah, Tim, you know, before going into, uh, uh, the main topic, you know, one of the things that I noticed is as you're reading this, it says, you know, worth five, you shall not bow down to them or worship them for either law. Your God, I'm a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me. See here, it's interesting, right? For those who are under the law in order to really keep the law and escape the punishment of the law. Not only you should keep the law perfectly, but your father should keep the law perfectly. Your grandfather should keep the law perfectly and your great grandfather should keep the law perfectly. So even if you kept the law perfectly, it could be, you know, your great grandfather sin might come and catch you. So I thought as you're reading it, I thought it's interesting. Speaker 1 00:06:08 Wow. It's, it's so tough for us to keep it. And we are expecting our ancestors to have kept it all. Well, too. That's uh, yeah. That's a lot of stress and burden when you are not directly involved. Speaker 2 00:06:21 Yeah. Yeah. So it clearly says, you know, punishing the children for the sin of the parents and to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me. So it's very interesting. So I think the main point is right here. If you look at the 10 commandments, every commandment starts with you. You shall not do this. You shall not do this. You shall not do this. And you shall keep the Sabbath. You shall honor your father and mother. And the other thing about the law is it's not enough if you do once, right? Let's say there was a perfect in your life where you kept all the 10 commandments, but of course somebody like you, Tim, uh, I wouldn't be, uh, surprised <laugh> had a perfect 10, Speaker 1 00:07:11 A perfect I've had a perfect nine. Speaker 2 00:07:17 Yeah. But you know, it's not enough day in and day out. You have to keep it because you know, the Bible says in, uh, if you go to Galatians chapter three, let's jump to Galatians chapter three real quick, Galatians chapter three, verse 10, for all who rely on the works of the law or under a curse, as it is written, cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law. You know, the key word is continue to do so day in and day out. You have to keep the entire law. And then even to the point of death, even just before dying, you should be perfect, right? Only then you are justified. Otherwise you're cursed. That's why the Bible says cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything return in the book of the law. And not only that, right. Speaker 2 00:08:11 So Jim says that if you broke one law and kept the entire law, you know, you are guilty of breaking all the law. So you have to keep all the commandments perfectly all the time. So it's not like a grading system. Right? Okay. I kept 99% of the time and I kept nine of the 10 commandments, uh, 99% of the time, you know, in the usual school system, you get some Grace Marks. Right? Okay. This kid is like 19% of the time. He is good. Okay. Let's give him some, give him some Grace Marks. It's not like that, Tim. I think you were going to say something. Go ahead. Speaker 1 00:08:47 No, I was disagreeing with you, AJ. It's uh, the fact, the fact that we have to keep them all it's and I've seen, seen preachers preach on specific things and then, uh, come out of it and gone. Okay. I got those things straight. You know, I haven't murdered anybody today. And then like we talked about last week, Jesus comes along and says, well, if you got mad at one of your brother and you've, you've committed murder, it's like, oh, oh man. Yeah, you can't, you just, there's 10 things. You think 10, you think in your mind, 10 things, this should be simple. And no, it's, I it's impossible. It is impossible. Speaker 2 00:09:23 Yeah. Yep. And another observation, you know, even just as you are reading, you know, I'm observing all this, I didn't plan on saying all these things, but one of the other observations is there are external commandments. There are internal commandments, right. There is probably one commandment. We all say, okay. Yeah, we all kept it. Hopefully. Right. You know, uh, the, you shall not murder. Right, Speaker 1 00:09:46 Right. Speaker 2 00:09:47 As far as I know, I did not literally kill anyone. So I think I'll probably check my box on that and truly under the old government. Okay. I really checked it because it simply says you shall not murder, but if you go further down, it says you should not cover it. So even under the law, nobody can say, hi, never covet it. You shall not cover your neighbor's house. You should not cover your neighbor's wife nor is male or female servant. Right. Or for example, you know, your passing by you see a nice Lamborghini drive car drive by and you say, Hey, I wish I had that. Even that is breaking the law. So Speaker 1 00:10:24 Exactly. I know I got a neighbor. Who's got a beautiful outdoor setup on his patio with three or four screens oft of TV. And I'll go over there once in a while and watch football with him. And I've got a, I've got a outdoor patio and pool and stuff. Mine isn't set up like that. So every once in a while, I'll catch myself going. Wow. It would be really nice to have this at my place. I was like, yeah, Speaker 2 00:10:49 That's, Speaker 1 00:10:50 That's, it's as simple as that. You're not even sitting there going, how can I take this from him? Or how can I scheme to get this in some other way? You were literally just saying, this is really nice. I wish I had. Speaker 2 00:11:03 Right. Right. And the thing is, you know, the more you try not to do that, the worse it becomes, just try, try not to cover it and see how it goes. Speaker 1 00:11:14 <laugh> it's the old, it's the old don't think about purple monkeys for the next five minutes routine. You can't, now that it's been put in your head, you can't help, but think about purple monkeys. And we've said before, it's not necessarily the act of sin that got us in this position, but the knowledge of that sin and then knowingly breaking it. Speaker 2 00:11:36 Exactly. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:11:37 It's, you know, don't think about coveting. Don't think about, uh, you know, making a graven image. Well, if you hadn't said anything, I might not have ever thought of it. Speaker 2 00:11:47 Yep. Yep. And that takes us right into the new Testament. Romans chapter seven. Speaker 1 00:11:54 Well, before we go there, I just want to add something. I'm sorry for interrupting. Speaker 2 00:11:58 No, no, no, go ahead. Go Speaker 1 00:11:59 Ahead. You know, we, we're kind of centered on the 10 commandments because that's the one, I think everybody, everybody knows 10 commandments, right. But there are 613 more rabbinical laws. And where did those come from? Those came from the Israelites asking their rabbis, their teachers. Well, what about, what about this situation? What about that situation? And every one of those 613 additional rabbinical, uh, issuances became laws in their own right. Works if you will. And again are really centered and focused on my behavior, what I do. And then in some cases, even as far as what I think what I feel, et cetera. So it's not, I mean, 10 bad enough. We know we can't keep those, but now there's 613 more. Holy cow. Speaker 2 00:12:51 Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I bet they keep adding things to those 600, depending upon, you know, the changing times I was, I once heard, you know, I do not know how true that is, but they have some weird loss, right? Like if you go in an elevator on a Sabbath, right. You are not working, but it, you actually, uh, press the button. That is a work. Speaker 1 00:13:18 Oh my Speaker 2 00:13:18 Goodness. So <laugh>, so they have elevators, you know, that automatically stop at every floor and then take you and the doors open automatically. Something like that. <laugh> wow. Speaker 1 00:13:29 That's well, okay. Now we, we weren't raised under that. So, you know, it's, I can't imagine it, but I'm sure that there are some people out there yeah. Who may have, have been raised under this. And if you guys want to correct us, please feel free or, or enlighten us. That would be great. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, that to me is I can't do 10. I don't even wanna talk about the rest Speaker 2 00:13:51 <laugh> yeah. So I think the point we are making is there is no end to the law, right. They only keep adding piling upon more and more as the times change as we live by, because every action of ours, we have to interpret in the context of the law and decide whether we are breaking the law or keeping the law. So Tim, we did talk about the 10th commandment, uh, thou shall not cover it. Yep. You know, that takes us straight into, uh, the new covenant, Romans chapter seven, you know, this is a well known chapter. Not only just because it is in the Bible, but because it is a personal experience of everybody, almost everybody universally, it is a personal experience. In fact, because of that experience, we all finally come to, um, Lord Jesus Christ and come to grace. But you know, I also, uh, one of the things we said is law makes us self-conscious right. It's all about what I have to do because the whole law is dependent on me. If I keep the law, I am blessed. And if I break the law, I'm cursed is as simple as that, Tim, before jumping into Romans chapter seven and reading a few verse, I don't know if you have something to add here. Speaker 1 00:15:08 No, I just was thinking, uh, back to my youth, which, you know, it's very hazy for me. I'm kind of old, but I, uh, I remember that, um, I learned young that I couldn't keep all those commandments and I knew I needed some sort of help. And I, I did come to Jesus at age 12, but even from, at that point until probably 10 years ago, I didn't completely understand what I think you're about to delve into. And I'm excited to be able to share that and then hear what you have to say. Speaker 2 00:15:41 That's awesome. Awesome, Tim. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, you know, one of the things the, you know, in Roman seven, uh, starting from the middle of the chapter, we had this experience of a man who is trying to keep the law. So one of the common questions that, uh, is asked is, Hey, either who is this talking about? Is it talking about a Jew or a Gentile, or is it talking about a believer, an unbeliever? But the thing is, you know, it doesn't matter regardless of whether you're a Jew or a Gentile, whether you're a believer or unbeliever, as long as you go under the law, as long as you put yourself under the law, you will, uh, you will experience whatever is explained here. So we can let us just, uh, look at Roman chapter seven. And I think I will start from verse seven. Speaker 2 00:16:27 What shall we say then? Is the law simple? Certainly not. Nevertheless, I would not have known what sins had it not been for the law for. I would not have known what covering really was. If the law had not said, you shall not covet, you know, Paul directly jumps to the, uh, commandment that gives us the most trouble. Right. <laugh> yep. He did not pick, uh, one of the top nine, but it picked the one that everyone breaks. Yeah. So he's directly getting to the heart of the matter. And he's saying forever, I've not known what covering really was. If the law had not said, you shall not cover. Speaker 1 00:17:04 So it's a lot, like we keep bringing up this analogy. If there's no speed limit signs on a highway, you don't know what the speed limit is. Therefore you can't break it. I mean, um, that's, it's the, again, I think I mentioned this early, it's the knowledge of the law brings us understanding of our inability to keep the law. Speaker 2 00:17:24 Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Just reading a little more for, I, would've not known what covering really was. If the law had not said, you should not cover it, but since season the opportunity afforded by the commandment produced in me, every kind of coveting for apart from the law inverse debt, once I was alive, apart from the law. But when the commandment came since spring to life and I died, I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. Speaker 1 00:17:54 Oh, that's a tough one for, as a parent of four kids. I'm afraid that as, as I raised my children, I raised them with the knowledge of the law, instead of just having them try to understand where to come from, from love and compassion and things like that. And I look back now and I go, wow, I probably could have done a lot of things different and better. I'm not saying there isn't discipline and stuff like that. But I am saying that I kind of placed the law on them instead of placing the love of Jesus and, and God upon them. Speaker 2 00:18:30 Yeah. It's not just your team. It's everybody's experience. Even now, after knowing grace, we kind of default to the law when we are telling our kids, Hey, do this, don't do this. So I think this is where we really need the spirit of God and the grace of God and raising our children, uh, according to the grace of God, right? Not by the rules and regulations. So moving forward a little bit, I found the very commandment that was intended to bring life, actually brought that. So one point to make here is there actually law is intended to keep life. If there is somebody who can perfectly keep the law, the reward of keeping the laws life. So, and if you break even one commandment, the reward is death. But if you're able to keep all the law, then, then God is obligated to give you life. Speaker 2 00:19:21 So that's how the law works. But in verse 11, we see for since season, the opportunity offered by the commandment dece me, me and through the commandment, put me to death. See, the other thing we notice here is it's not the sin that kills us. It's the law. Sin has no power to kill us. What sin is doing is it's taking opportunity by the commandment and it deceived me and through the commandment put me to death. So the loss is the wages of Sinh death, right? The soul that sin shall die, but sin has no power to kill us. You know, sometimes we think that, you know, sin kills us, you know, sin actually causes us to sin so that law can kill us because end of the day, the law is given by God and the power to kill or give life belongs to God. So the law of God kills us. If we sin under the law, Speaker 1 00:20:15 You know, AJ, I had a, a pastor once who I loved and who kind of illustrated this part of this point. And that is that if you break one sin, that's it, you've kind of, you're kind of held accountable as in the same fashion, if you had broken them all. And he's, he brought a very large sheet of glass up on to the pulpit and he started writing on and he wrote the 10 commandments. And he started writing things like the out of the, the rabbinical laws and stuff. And he goes, absolutely. Every one of these things has to be kept. The law is showing you that you can't keep them. And therefore you are, you will sin. And it's not the, like you said, it's not the sin that kills us, but he took, he says, you break one law. Let's take one of the most innocuous ones. You're wearing mixed fibers to church this morning. And he took a pair of pliers and he tried to nip off just the tiniest little quarter on that glass. And that glass shattered, like it had been struck by a bomb, uh, and, and went everywhere. Speaker 1 00:21:21 And it was like, holy cow, what a very visceral way of showing you use just this little tiny corner, just this one little peek. Speaker 2 00:21:31 That's an awesome illustration, Tim. I'm glad you shared that. That's really good. That's really good. Uh, I think the, another one is not the exact analogy, but if you take a glass of pure water and you drop a, you put a drop of poison, right? The whole thing becomes poison at that point. It, it is as good as, you know, you're drinking the whole poison. Speaker 1 00:21:53 If you read a box of rat poison, it's a lot of ingredients and only less than 1% of it is actually poison. And yet it is enough to get rid of the pests and critters and rats. Speaker 2 00:22:06 Yeah. Yeah. So I think, uh, applying it to us, right. If it is a little bit of sin in us, the whole, we are, all of us are sinful, right? If the, a little 11 elevens the whole dove, right. Just like that, you know, even a little bit of sin is enough to make us completely sinful and bring us under the condemnation of the law. So I think sometimes we think, okay, yeah. If I'm 90%, I'm living a good life and 10%, okay. Everybody does that. Right. Everybody, we are human. So that's not gonna fly Speaker 1 00:22:40 <laugh>. The school has taught us that 70% is a passing grade. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:22:45 There's no passing grade here. Yeah. So just going forward a little bit in verse. So then the law is holy and the commandment is holy righteous and good. Then he goes on to say, did that, which is good. Then become death to me. No, by no means. Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. And then he goes on to say, we know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual sold as a slave to sin. So that is a problem. Right? The problem is not with the law. The problem is with us. If let's say, if you tell Jesus to obey the law, right. He will a, it, he will not have the same effect. Speaker 1 00:23:36 Right. Speaker 2 00:23:36 The reason yeah. He's like, oh yeah, bring on more. Right. You know, that's my nature. That's what I do all the time. You know? Right. It's like, like, uh, telling your baby to sleep in the crib. <laugh>, <laugh>, that's what, uh, that's what it is. Right. Lie down in the crib, you know, that's all they can do. Speaker 1 00:23:53 It's his nature. Speaker 2 00:23:54 It's its nature. Yeah. But the law is a problem for us. You know, that's what the law is intended to show us. Simply put why law is given to show us, Hey, you're not like Jesus. So don't pretend you're Jesus. If you really want to be like, Jesus receive the life of Jesus. That's the only way. So law says that, right. You know, clearly, even for Paul, it says, he he's saying that, you know, he realized finally that law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual in other versions. It says I'm Al soul under sin. I do not understand what I do for, uh, what I want to do. I do not do. But what I hate that I do. Speaker 1 00:24:35 Yeah. That's a that, and I've seen that so many times in my own life and it's, and it's difficult, but you know, we've been talking for quite a while about the bad, not the badness of the lot is good and holy and just according to Paul, but, uh, it's, it's time for us to start saying, okay, so what's the answer to all this. Speaker 2 00:24:55 Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:24:56 And I know you're in it. I know you're in it. And uh, but I'm yeah. I'm starting to get excited. Tell me, tell me, tell me. Yeah, Speaker 2 00:25:02 Yeah, yeah. Just if you can hold off for a couple of more verse. Okay. Speaker 1 00:25:06 Okay. Speaker 2 00:25:06 You'll get there. I think we have enough time, so we should be good. Uh, so, alright. So I'm just reading here, right? Even in fact, I'm getting excited reading this. It's been a while I actually read this. So we know that the law is spiritual, but I'm on spiritual soul as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do for what I want to do. I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. So some people say, oh yeah, law is bad. No, we are not saying law is bad. We are actually agreeing that the law is good because we are doing something that we do not want to do as it is. It is no longer I myself who do it. But sin living in me for, I know that good itself does not dwell in me. Speaker 2 00:25:51 That is in my sinful flesh for, I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out for, I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil, I do not want to do this. I keep on doing now. If I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it. But sin living in me that does it. Then he goes on to say, so I find a law at work. Although I want to do good evil is there within me. So he's here referring to the sin, that Wells in us right here, when he is saying, I find a law that is at work. He's not referring to the law of God. Obviously he is referring to that law in him. That is even though he wants to do good, he's ending up doing bad, right? Speaker 2 00:26:40 It's like, uh, the law of gravity, no matter how much, much you want to fly, you'll fall flat, right? There is this law of sin pulling us down, no matter how much we want to raise a ball, the ground, we just fall flat on our faces because in our members, that's what he is saying, right. For in my inner being, I delight in God's law here. He is referring to the law of God, but I see another law at work in me. He's talking about in my members, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. Speaker 1 00:27:15 So I just have a question. You guys can't see us cuz it's an audio podcast and I'm raising my hands and stuff. Um, so the, the idea of, um, I, this I want to do, but I don't do and this I don't want to do, but I do do. And that's the sin in us. That's really the flesh, the old nature, the sinful nature of being a human being that hasn't been saved. Right? Speaker 2 00:27:39 Yeah. Speaker 1 00:27:40 So that's, that's, it's not saying we can't control it, but we can't control it all the time. We can't control it to the level, to which it needs to be controlled. We just don't have that ability in the flesh of ourselves. Speaker 2 00:27:53 Yeah. Tim, you know, like you said, you know, we all have this, uh, sinful nature and the Bible says, you know, sin dwells in our members, you know, when Adam sinned and we lost the life of Christ or in other words, in fact, you know, we did not lose the life of Christ. I think just to step back a little bit, you know, in the tree, in the garden, God had two trees. One is a tree of knowledge of good and evil. There are another tree is a tree of life. The tree of life is nothing but the largest crushed himself. So, but Adam was created innocent. He was neither righteous nor sinful. He was like innocent, like a baby, right? Like babies are innocent. So he had the choice of eating from the tree of life and partake of Lord Jesus Christed himself and partake of his nature. Speaker 2 00:28:40 Or he had the choice of, you know, eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and die and just come under the reign of sin. But that's what happened, right? So when Adam sinned, basically he spiritually he's communion with God, you know, he lost it. And on top of that, he inherited an evil heart, which is our evil nature. And also he inherited a fallen body. So now the Bible says sin Wells in our members, sin Wells in our body. You know, that's one of the reasons why even believers can sin because we still have the old bodies in which sin Wells, you know, only when we get to heaven, we get new and perfect God bodies, you know, even the presence of sin, where we are delivered, even from the presence of sin. But until then we have sin dwelling in our members. And that is a reason we end up sending. Speaker 1 00:29:29 I've always thought it was interesting even from, you know, uh, pre uh, understanding of the new covenant versus old covenant that they weren't called the tree of life and the tree of death. It was the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Not, not even the tree of wanting to make you evil. It was just the knowledge of good and evil. That was a very distinct, very specific thing. Right. It took me quite a long time to come to grips with that. Speaker 2 00:29:58 Yeah. Yeah. In fact, you know, that is a type of law, right. You know, what is good? What is evil? You're basically telling God, okay, I will keep the good and thereby I earn my righteousness. I don't need you. And I will avoid the evil. Yeah. But, uh, but the predicament is, you know, the Lord said, the day you will eat of it. You will die. It's not after you put it to test the moment you ate of it. You will die. That means Adam, the moment they ate of it, they died. And after dying, they came to know the knowledge of good and evil. So there's no way they can keep the law because by the time they came to understand what is good and what is bad, they're already dead. And they have no life so that they can keep the good and avoid the evil. Speaker 2 00:30:47 So that is a predicament we are in. Right. You know, we are already dead. We have no strength in us to do any good. And we are exposed to the law. What can we do? We, we will become even worse. Right? That's exactly what, uh, Paul is saying here. There are two losses talking about one is God's law, right in verse, uh, 21. And in verse 23 is talking about the law of sin that is at work in our members. And we are subject to the law of sin that is at work in our members. And we are under the reign of sin. And then we are exposed to God's law. So there's no way we can keep it. And that is a struggle that, uh, Paul is talking about here. And then finally he cries out, oh, Richard man, that I am, who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death. Speaker 2 00:31:37 So before we read the answer, uh, um, Tim, I just wanted to go back and notice how many times I, I, I came in this chapter. So, you know, starting from verse seven, what shall we say is the law symbol? Certainly not. Nevertheless, I would have not known what sin was, had it not been for the law. You know, first for, I would not have known what covering really was. If the law had not said, you should not cover it, but since se opportunity afforded by the commandment produced in me, every kind of Cotting apart from the law, sin was dead. Again, once I was alive, apart from the law, but when the commandment came since Frank to life and I died, I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life, actually brought death for sin, seizing opportunity by the Lord, distilled me and through the commandment, put me to death and then you move on, right? Speaker 2 00:32:38 Um, if you further go, we know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual. I do not understand what I do for what I want to do. I do not do, but what I hate to do I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good as it is. It is no longer I myself who do it, but sin living in me and for, I know the law is good and law is good. I know that good itself does not. Well in me, that is in my sinful nature for, I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry out. And there are more eyes, right? Speaker 1 00:33:24 It's, it's amazing. Just how self-centered, uh, the law has, has made all these statements at this point. And I, I don't wanna rush you, but we're starting to get close to our usual time limit. So what I wanna say is save me from all this me, me, me, me, me <laugh> tell me, tell me why, you know, how the, the spirit and the new covenant save me from having to do me and start focusing elsewhere. Speaker 2 00:33:54 Right? So let's read that in, uh, 24 and 25, I'm actually going to go a little bit into chapter, uh, eight so that, uh, it, uh, you see everything in context sometimes, you know, we just, uh, read chapters as though the con conversation ended there, but it's not true. So let's see. And in verse 24, what Richard man, I am, who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death. Thanks me to God who delivers me through Jesus Christ, our Lord. So then I, myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature of the flesh is slave to law of sin. And then he goes on to say, I think the next center suggestion, addendum, but I'm going to kind of skip it and read, uh, a, uh, the next chapter in context. Then you will see right in from 24 through, uh, uh, Roman chapter rate, verse one, I'm going to read it again. What Richard man, I am, who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death. Thanks me to God who delivers me through Jesus Christ. Our Lord. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Jesus, that's it, period. So that is the deliverance, right? Who will deliver me. It is the Lord, Jesus Christ. Speaker 1 00:35:17 That's huge that that complete, that's a complete 180 turnaround, right, right. Reverse. And it is the, the idea that we, we may still mess up. We still may have issues and problems, but uh, yeah. Keep going, cuz this is the part that goes, you've been pushed down and beaten this long, but now. Speaker 2 00:35:43 Yeah. But now yeah, therefore there is now no condemnation to, to those who are in Christ. Jesus, because through Christ Jesus, the love of spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin. And that for what the law was powerless to do, because it is weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemns sin in the flesh. Speaker 1 00:36:09 Amen. Speaker 2 00:36:10 In order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who did not live according to the flesh, but according to the Speaker 1 00:36:17 Spirit. Amen. Speaker 2 00:36:19 So here again, I think it's important to note, right? You know, here, it says, you know, who do not live according to the flesh again, you know, people default interpreting this, oh, who do not sin, right. That's not what it is. The whole point is we could not keep the law. We could not keep ourself from sinning. So what it is saying is not living according, the flesh is not living by the works of the law, but living by the grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ. So if you're not living by the law, but living by grace, there is no condemnation because the law of spirit of life has made me free from the law of sin and death. Again here, I think, uh, when we say, you know, the law of spirit of life made me from the law of sin and death, it is, I believe it is referring to verse, uh, 23 in the previous chapter, right. It says, I see another law working me. So what it means is even though, as believers in our flesh, if we come under the law sin, that is in our flesh, we end up sending sometimes there's no condemnation Speaker 1 00:37:22 And we do sin sometimes. I mean, I, I don't wanna make things too personal, but late, earlier, I guess last week I had a bit of a frustration moment and meltdown with two of the people I respect and love the most AJ and mark, I, I literally just unloaded on them about something. I couldn't have feel, felt worse because I knew I had hurt them. I knew I had been, been and done wrong. I, but, uh, the idea is that they showed me the same love of Christ told me that there was, you know, no need for forgiveness because in their minds they loved me. And they knew that, you know, we're all human, we have problems and Jesus does the same thing. He says, you may do things that are wrong, but, uh, you know, you may have to deal with them on the earthly plane in the flesh, but you don't have to worry about those things in the spiritual level. You don't come to the throne when you die and go, you know, you had that little problem that day with mark and AJ <laugh>, you know, I'm, I can, I can get your forgiveness and repair our relationship, which is necessary in the earth. But with Jesus, I can go, Lord, just keep working on me and keep working through me and help me put my flesh aside. Speaker 2 00:38:40 Totally Tim. And of course, you know, as a matter of fact, I did not feel like, you know, that was a big thing or I was offended, but I think it's your gentleness. That's causing you to feel like that. So that aside, but I think the point we are making is we are, even though we have this law of sin and death in us, in our members, especially as believers. And even though we might come under the power of it and sin, but we are free from condemnation. That's what it says. You know, the law of spirit of life has made me free from the law of sin and death. That means even though in our flesh, in our body with sin, we do not die again spiritually because a lot of the spirit of life that is in our spirit is greater than the law of sin and death that is in our members. Speaker 2 00:39:25 So because there's no condemnation, even if he's sin, we do not die again because the Bible goes on to sea. The law, Jesus Christed has condemned sin in the flesh on the cross. So the sin itself is condemned and that which is condemned, cannot condemn us. So this is really, really beautiful. Like there's so much to, uh, learn from here or, you know, so much to, um, so much to garner from this. But I think it suffice us to say that as believers, we don't have to be afraid of, uh, uh, ever dying again, E E sin or ever coming back under condemnation, E E sin. In fact, the gift of no condemnation is the one that propels us to live life about this sinful flesh. Speaker 1 00:40:11 There is a lot we could unpack in all that RJ, but unfortunately, sadly, we're coming up on the end of our time, uh, for a normal episode. So what I wanna do is I want to quickly say that if you accept Jesus and you, you know, you have understood and believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and that we are no longer sinful people. You may still do wrong things. This is after you become a believer, you may still do wrong things. You may still have things to face on this earth. You may have to repair relationships. You may have to, you know, address situations and walk through them because the earth is still the earth. But when we die, when we go to heaven, there's gonna be a judgment for everybody, even Christians. And we're gonna stand before the throne. And he's gonna say to those who believed in him, I see nothing wrong with you, because all I can see is that you accepted my son and you're covered by the blood of Jesus. Well done. You enter into eternal life IJ. That's my wrap up. I'm gonna let you go ahead and do your wrap up. Speaker 2 00:41:21 So Tim, I have to, it might be a hair split, but uh, I have to disagree with you a little bit. So the Bible says, you know, we are, we're not coming to judgment at all. So on the great day of judgment, the people who are standing are those who are not in Christ. In fact, I would say if we are already in Christ and we are seated already in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. So when Christ should judging the world, where would we be? Are we in front of him or are actually with him on the throne? So I tend to believe we are in Christ, right? Actually judging the world. In fact, um, somewhere the largest says, you know, his disciples will judge the world. So I feel like, you know, we will never come into judgment, but again, that's probably a hair split. Uh, but uh, I thought, you know, there's so much more joy in knowing that we don't even stand before the judgment thrown. So I just wanted to say that I don't mean to disagree with you on this. Yeah, Speaker 1 00:42:23 I should have prefaced. What I said with this is what I believe, because that was an opinion, not something I could back up scripturally. So what I will say is, I'm sure you, and I will talk about this over time and we'll revisit this on the podcast sometime in the future, but we don't have a hundred percent of the answers. And even we don't necessarily agree on 100%, but here's what we do agree on when we believe on Christ. And we do, as Paul said, and we said, we are determined not to know anything, but Jesus Christ and him crucified, we are delivered from the knowledge of the, of good and evil and that we are no longer condemned by it. And I think that's, especially since we talk so much about sin and the, I, I, I, this is no longer about us. It's about what Jesus Christ did for us. And we can rest in that and we can move in that. And then we can continue to talk about the details. Speaker 2 00:43:22 Yeah. So Tim, I know we are at time, but just I'll take 10 seconds to give a wrap. Uh, so we saw that under the Lord. It's all about I, I, I, right. Yep. And, um, when we turn to Christ Jesus, when we turn to the cross, right? The eye dies on the cross. And then from that point on what, it's all Jesus, it's all Christ and him crucified. It's no longer I, and that's why, you know, under the law, we can never be Christ centered. And if we are not Christ focused, we can never be others focused also. Right. So just forget about really, truly from our heart, helping anyone being generous and loving under the law, because the focus is always on me, me, me. So in order to be generous in order to be crushed, like you need to be delivered from the law. And that's exactly the crush does for us. Speaker 1 00:44:13 Amen. And what a good summation and with one caveat never trust me, mark or IJ. When we say we only need 10 seconds to go only 10 seconds. <laugh> I love you brother. It's been a good conversation with you tonight. And I look forward to talking with you, you, and when next time when mark returns. So for everybody, thanks for listening. And we'll talk to you again. The next time we would like to thank you for listening to the unveiling. We hope you have enjoyed it enough to consider subscribing and sharing with others. We welcome your questions, comments, and feedback. You can reach us via email at the unveiled gospel, yahoo.com or find our Facebook page at the unveiling podcast for AJ, mark and myself. God bless. And we will talk with you next time.