Episode 11 – Part 3 of “Things I Used to Know – Debunking Christian Myths”

Tim 00:00:23 Hi everybody. This is Tim with me as usual Mark and Ajai. We're back together in the studios actually for the first time in a while, pulling back the curtain a little bit, this is our first recording of 2022. And, we are, I say we haven't been together for a while, but my, direct message counter says that we have been communicating an awful lot despite being far away from each other, but it's good to see you guys. We can see each other on the screen as we're recording. So it's good to be back together and to see you guys Mark 00:00:58 Good to see you, Tim. Ajai 00:01:00 Good to see you both. Mark 00:01:01 Hope you guys had a great Christmas. Tim 00:01:03 I had to pause there and make a mouse. It's good to see you, Tim. I know they're both trying to shield their eyes <laugh> anyway. so here we are. We're getting together today. This is gonna be episode number three in our debunking Christian myths series, or we've subtitled that things I used to know. and today I think we're gonna be talking about a very specific passage that gets taught a lot and, really I've, I've not always understood it. And I think that, I think I have, I think we have a better handle on it now under grace and I think that we'd like to try and impart that. So, let me start off by giving us that passage. It is, 1st John 1:8 – 10. And it says “if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and He will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sin, we make Him out to be a liar and His word is not in us”. That's very, very, ah I wanna say condemning almost and, it's one of those things that I always was taught “hey, if you don't keep confessing your sins, look, it says right here, you know, you don't have any, the truth isn't in you and things like that” and it's always been kind of a verse that I took very personally and very worriedly and now under grace, I don't take it that way. But don't take it from me, let me, pitch this over to Mark. Why, you know, what is it now? What does it mean now? Mark 00:02:43 Well, I'll give you a little background on this. The way this came up to me first was a very good old friend of mine who's a pastor and I one night we're sitting out, we used to have what were called boys nights out where we'd get together and smoke a couple cigars and sit around the fire and just talk about the gospel and he is an excellent gospel preacher, really understands the message of God's grace, and somehow this scripture came up. And when he said it in my spirit, I was just troubled. And we started to talk about it and what I realized is, is that from this whole thing, you'll find out is that a lot of times the things we believe aren't based on scripture, there are things that have been handed down, tradition. We've heard pastors and preachers and small group leaders just say, and we just take him in as like, oh, well that must be truth and then as we progress and grow in our relationship with Christ and our understanding of Him, by spending a lot of time contemplating Him, we start to see things come up here and there that we just took for granted. Things I used to know, as you said, didn't we used to know this, but what was the knowledge based on is the question? Was it based on really getting a scripture and contemplating whether this could be part of the gospel, whether it's true or not? So, we got into a little discussion about whether believe believers need to confess their sin or not, and my first thing I came back with him was it just doesn't seem logical to me, and I said to him, so you're telling me that if I don't confess every sin that my sin has, not, that sin has not been forgiven and I have not been purified from right, right, unrighteousness and I said to him, “First of all, we don't know, as we go through each day, our lives are busy and we get under stress at times and get short with our temper and we just don't know every sin we confess every day, so what about those sins that I was impervious to? I'm still in that sin because I haven't confessed it, does that seem logical to you?” I said, and he said, no, I gotta admit that really doesn't seem logical. And, and I said, and what about just plain forgetting them? You know, I might have realized at the time I was sinning, but by the time I got alone in my car came to the end of the day I just don't remember every mistake I made every day. So now I'm still in that sin, I'm still in that transgression because I haven't said it out loud to God, to me, that's just not logical. He actually agreed with that. And then the second thing would be a question that kind of naturally stems out of that is then. Okay, if I believe I need to confess every sin, how often do I need to do it? Is it just one a day, once a day, I get 'em all off my chest? Just do my best. I might not remember half of them or know the other half, but I'm gonna at the end of it or is it after every hour? Is it after every minute? Is it right there when I do 'em? Is it at the next communion service at my church? Do I have to go to a Catholic priest and confess them? Otherwise, I'm just walking around most of my Christian life in my sin because they haven't been confessed. So what do you guys think about those points? Ajai 00:06:14 Yeah, Mark, you know, you made an excellent point about using logic, right, to say, you know, why this doesn't make sense, but like we always do, you know, along with logic, we also always support what we say with scriptures. So, for me, you know, the biggest problem with this kind of theology is that, you know, it has a limited view of the cross and it makes little of what our Lord Jesus Christ did for us. In fact, the scripture says, because of the finished work of our Lord Christ, God has forgiven us of all our sin. Ephesians 1:7 says “in Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sin”. It's not, we will get forgiven, but we have f(been)orgiven, right? If we have something, we won't get it, we have it. And in Colossians 1:14, it says, “In whom we have redemption through His blood the forgiveness of sin” again, we have the forgiveness of sin, and in Colossians 2:13, it says, “and you being dead in your trespasses and the circumcision of the flesh, He has made a life together with Him having forgiven you of all your trespasses”. So, if all our sins are forgiven, how many are left to be forgiven, Right? So, Lord Jesus Christ has finished the work. And He's appropriation for us sins, and Lord is the God, God the Father is perfectly satisfied with his work and has forgiven us of all our sins. Tim 00:07:50 I'm the, I just haven't want to ask a question cuz not all of us speak Christianese and that is you used the word propitiation. It's a great word. What is propitiation for everyone's understanding? even mine, just to make sure I'm right. Ajai 00:08:07 Yeah. Tim, thanks for asking that propitiation means like if you go look at the Greek word, it's actually the translation from mercy seat. There are two things, the mercy seat in the Old Testament, right, so the blood has to be sprinkled on the mercy seat for the sins to be forgiven. So, what it means is like, you know, unless the blood is sprinkled, our sins still remain on us. So propitiation means it's the old Testament mercy seat, which means, you know, God is completely satisfied with the work of the Lord Christ. So there's a meaning of mercy and it also means like pro proposition also means complete satisfaction. So God, the father is completely satisfied with the work of our Lord Christ. Mark 00:08:52 Yes. And I agree with you, Ajai, that this, this so-called doctrine really just calls into question the sufficiency of the cross. It's like saying to Christ when He, His final statement was it is finished and He breathes last and died for us, it's like saying, well, yeah, it is finished Lord, but I still need to confess every sin that I did today. And then you, where does the list end? You need, you can add X, Y, and Z. You need to give 10%, you need to read a chapter of the Bi (Bible), you know, it's just, it just, it calls into question the sufficiency of the cross and really makes little of what Christ did that. It wasn't enough it’s saying. So I think that was a great point, Ajai, and I also said what I love, how you went from the fact that I came with a, a kind of an argument of logic saying, how, how could this be true logically? And you brought the scripture and support it. One of the things I love about scripture is how much it works in congress with logic. They're not opposed to each other, in fact, when you use logic and, and the very gift of reasoning you've been given, the Bible says that's where we experience transformation. It's when we contemplate the Lord's glory, when we renew our minds and what the truth is. And if anything, what this, podcast hopes to be about. It's to get people to contemplate the Lord's glory, to get into scripture with us, on their own, with other Christians, and really find out for themselves because that's really where the transformation comes and it's, I gotta tell you for the three of us, it's one of our biggest, if not biggest joy in life is getting into scripture and God just blows us away as He shows us more and more of Christ, more and more of His perfect plan of His love for us and not just for believers, it all goes back to for God's so loved the world. As you get deeper and deeper into that, your life just becomes joy filled. So, sorry for carrying on so much. Ajai 00:11:01 Yeah. So, Mark talking about logic and scriptures together, you know, the Christ finished work is so finished that He put away our sin so completely that God our Father says that, you know, He remembers our sins no more. You know, that is a main clause of the new covenant it's in Hebrews chapter 8, as well as in Hebrews chapter 10, where the Lord says, you know, “this is a new covenant I'm going to make with you”, right, “I'll put my laws within you”. And He says, “I will remember your sin no more.” Again, coming back to logic, right, if the, if God is not remembering our sins anymore, why do we need to bring up sins every time, you know, when we sin. Mark 00:11:42 Or why would you even want to, you know, much less need to, it's like, you know, I always use that analogy; if you borrow your dad's car and you wreck it and he's very gracious to (you), and forgives you, every day for the rest of your life are you gonna keep confessing that I wreck your car <laugh>, you know, and try to get him mad again? No, doesn't make sense, does it? So, I love your point about the finished work of the cross being finished, just that, and that kind of flows into the next point. I wanted to make that we've talked about some on this, podcast before it's been a little bit of a running theme, and that is that Christians no longer sin now, whenever I say that all the red flags are going up out there. And I know my friend, Tim will be about to <laugh> chime in here and so what we're not saying is I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep Tim quiet here by answering before he gets the chance. But what we're not saying is is that Christians don't sin on the horizontal plane against each other. What we're saying that our sin is no longer countered as transgression against God. So then I'm gonna back this up and, with a couple quick scriptures here, Romans 5 says to be sure “sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account, where there is no law”. And then it says in Romans 6, that “you are not under the law, but under grace”. So, using logic, we're told if that if we're not under law, our sins, aren't a transgression against God. And then in Roman 6, Paul tells us, you are not under law. You are under grace. Okay? And then Romans 4 says “where there's no law, there is no transgression. The promise comes by faith. And it is by grace. And then finally it's Hebrews 8:12, Hebrews 10:17, Hebrews 31:34, all all back up what Ajai said, that their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more. Tim 00:13:52 Mark, I, I don't appreciate your take stealing my thunder and, and stifling my argument about, Mark 00:13:57 I knew you'd still have more to say Tim, that's all. So take it away. <laugh> Tim 00:14:01 No, no, exactly everything you said I agree with completely. And I just, the only thing I could add to it was the actual definition of sin is missing the mark. It means not being able to be, to live up to perfection. And when we're covered by Christ, God no longer sees us, but sees Christ and that Christ is perfect and that covers for us. Now, we still miss the mark, especially amongst each other. We can still hurt other people, and there are times we have to go to them and say, “you know what? I screwed up and messed up with you, I'm sorry!” because that's how we keep our earthly relationships alive. But God, but God said, when I forgive you, I forgive you all your sins as you've explained. And that means yesterday’s, today’s and tomorrow's. Mark 00:14:50 Yep, absolutely. Ajai 00:14:51 Yeah. There is, one more scripture that, comes to my mind in the same chapter, Mark, Romans chapter 4, actually, Paul quoting David says “blessed is a man to whom the Lord will not impeach sin”, right? So blessed is a man who sins are forgiven. And blessed it is a man to whom the Lord will not inputs sin. That means like when we sin, you know, that sin is not accounted, on us or towards us because you know, it was already put on our Lord Christ and it was accounted on the cross and he already paid the payment for our sins. So, by no means, we are saying that, you know, okay, now that your sins are forgiven, you go out and sin like crazy. We are not saying that. But the thing is, you know, in fact the Bible says, when you actually know, when you sins are forgiven, you are free to not to sin. So that is again counter intuitive, but the power comes from knowing that, our sins are forgiven. And in fact, the Lord Jesus also told the woman caught in adultery; He first gave her the gift of no condemnation, “neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more”. Mark 00:16:10 And then he said, after that, “for those who have been forgiven much, love much”. [Yeah.] So being out from under the law, out from under sin and being in freedom, it does not lead to sin to doing more sin because I'm no longer transgressing against God, it leads to love. It leads to being transformed. See, that's one of the major fears that people that believe this kind of doctrine they're afraid, “Hey, if we get out from under that burden of sin, we're just gonna go hog wild” and as my pastor's wife used to say my old pastor's wife at the end of the service, that people that are afraid of the message of God's grace think that when we leave church here, we're all gonna stop at a liquor store and knock it off on the way home <laugh>. And it's like, that's not what freedom in Christ leads to, in fact, it says that it's not until we become free from the law that sin loses its dominion over us, cuz the law actually arouses sin in us. It's not grace that arouses sin, it's law that does. Let me just finish up that, that last point, the whole point we're making on this point that we are no longer transgressing against God, is that if my sins been completely washed away, as far as the east is from the west, if God remembers my sins and lawless acts no more why in the world, would I need to confess every sin I do every day. I wouldn't, and, and what I would like to say also that, Tim and I talked about this earlier, that there are in the whole and I, I, I, encourage all of you to get into your concordances, your computer Bibles and look up, look up the word, confess your sins. You're gonna find it three times in the entire New Testament. The first time is John, the Baptist, who was the last old covenant prophet, okay, so he's not preaching the gospel cause it hasn't happened yet and he was preaching a repentance for the, for the remission, confession of sin. Then the other one is what Tim said, and that is that we confess our sins to one another because we're not able to remember our friends and family's sins no more, so, it's healthy for us to confess when we mess up and hurt somebody to forgive them, to ask for forgiveness. And so like anytime we have any discussion, we're not trying to be mean spirited and say, oh, all these pastors, you know, they're preaching this false, you know, teaching here, we're just trying to encourage people to look at the reasons they believe things and try to back them up and really study it and, and come to a conclusion on that. I just think this has been handed down to people as a tradition and we've just kind of taken people's word for it, but when we weigh it against scripture and against logic, it really makes no sense. So you guys wanna put some in here, so it's not just me talking cuz I get paid by the word. Ajai 00:19:22 No, no, no. You're doing good Mark. Go ahead. Yeah. Mark 00:19:25 Okay. well, so then, so this conversation that kept mentioning was going on with my pastor frienemy at the fire, after we talked some of this stuff through, he said, well, he said “this isn't about losing your salvation. When John is saying that, unless you confess your sins and are purified from all unrighteousness, you're not gonna lose your salvation, this is just about the quality of your relationship, your closeness of fellowship and communion with God. Which I would say, once again, that kind of defies logic to some extent, first of all, look at what the scripture says. Nowhere in that scripture Tim read at the beginning 1 John 1:8 does it mention anything about the quality of relationship it's talking about if you are still in your sin, if you have not been justified by your righteousness, you are still accountable for your sin. You are without hope and without God in the world, you're still in your sin. It's not a, it's not just a little bit. Oh, I'm in my sin and unrighteousness. So I'm not as close to God to me. That's just very logical. What do you guys think about that? Tim 00:20:40 I, I wanna say, both of those arguments, the idea that we can lose our salvation to me is it kind of blows my mind. It's not like there's an angel in heaven, going back and forth between the book of life with a pen and an eraser take putting our names in, oops, he didn't confess this in taking our names out, putting our names in, taking it. It's that's, that's ridiculous. And, and the, the idea that, losing my fellowship Christ, well, the Holy Spirit dwells in me. He's in me. I couldn't get much closer if I tried. He, I can't separate from that. I don't want, don't want to, but I I don't think it's possible to pry it out with a crowbar, so I, I just find both of those ideas distasteful. Mark 00:21:24 And I think my friend, if I, if I asked him on the point, most of us have heard preachers preach, which is absolutely true, there's nothing you can do to make God love you more. And there's nothing you can do to make God love you yes less. He would agree with that. Well, wait a minute, that's the opposite of what you're saying. The scripture says, you're saying, that there is something we can do to make God us, God love us less and that's not confess every single sin we do every day. Yeah. You know? Ajai 00:21:56 Yeah. In fact, you know, I want to make one more, more basic point about this or more fundamental, you know, confession is not only not necessary, but to begin with, you know, confession will not get to the forgiveness because the Bible says in Hebrews chapter 9, I believe it's in verse 14; It says like or 9:22, it says, “according to the law all the sins have to, so all the sins have to be cleansed by blood, and without the shedding of the blood, there is no forgiveness”. So, if you really think about it, right, when we sin or when we sin against God, blood has to be shed. A mere confession will not get to the forgiveness, so the blood has to be shed. So, what we are saying is, you know, every time you sin Christ has to come down and die again on the cross until then, you know, your sins won't be forgiven. So again, you know, without understanding the truth of how the forgiveness works, you know, we have come up with this new theology, right, you know, where you sin, when you sin you just confess, and your sins will be forgiven. But to begin with, you know, this confession of sins does not even meet the requirements of forgiveness. So when we understand this, right, you know, we are making an assumption that, you know, somehow this confession will bring us a forgiveness, but to begin with it doesn't even blood has to be shed for forgiveness. Just mere confession is not enough. So, when you think about it, right, this whole doctrine to begin with, you know, the validity or the authenticity of the doctrine is questionable, you know, know when you compare it against the scriptures and when we realize that confession alone is not enough, you know, we don't even have to talk about all the other things, whether we lose fellowship or whether we lose salvation, we don't even have to go there because to begin with just confessing will not even get your forgiveness according to the scriptures. Tim 00:24:06 You know, that's a really good point of even those people who seem to try and want to live under the law, still only pick and choose those portions of the law that you know, that they want to follow. It's, if the Bible says the remission of sin requires shed blood, and you're saying changing that to, oh no, you just need to confess, well, you're, you're breaking the law right there. You either take the whole law or none of the law, cuz it's Jesus. You know, it's said in the Bible that if you break one sin, then you're guilty of all of 'em. And I'm probably misquoting the heck out of that, off the top of my head, but you either have to take the whole law or none of it. And I really wanna be under none of it with grace. Ajai 00:24:50 Yep. Mark 00:24:50 And bounce bouncing off of what Ajai just said about that confession in itself does nothing, but blood has to be shed, he's kind of referring to Hebrews chapter 9 where they're looking back to Israel's sacrificing of animals for sin, which scripture tells us was just a shadow of the realities and good things to come. when Christ came. Hebrews 9 says He did not enter by the means of the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the most holy place once for all by His own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption, the blood of goats and bulls and ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonial, ceremonially, unclean, sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more than will the blood of Christ who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciousness from acts that lead to death. That, to me, that just says it all right there. Christ died once for all. And there are, I, I would also encourage our listeners go into your concordances or on your comp computer and type in once for all and you're gonna find close to a dozen scriptures that say Christ died once for all. When he died, he didn't just die for the, for the sins that you did before you were a Christian, He knew every sin you'd commit in your entire life (and) He died from all. So, if he already died for these sins, why would I be confessing them in 1 John 1:8? So that's just a, a proof that I really love. And I think we can probably move on here. And I just wanna, I just wanna cap this kind of, I don't like to use the word argument, but just, diving into this delving into it, Paul writes about, so if our sin could somehow affect our relationship with God, our closeness, our fellowship, then what Paul writes in Romans 8:35 would be completely wrong. He says, “what shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? No. And all these things. We are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels, nor demons, neither the present, nor future, nor any powers, neither height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus, our Lord” We probably could [Amen.] We probably could have just started with that one and save 40 minutes here. Once you, once you come to the love of God in Christ and His sacrifice on the cross has been applied to you, you've been given His spirit as a seal of ownership and a deposit guaranteeing what is to come, there's nothing you can do to remove yourself from His love in distance or in quality because you've got it all. And I just love how Paul says after naming like a dozen different circumstances that can't affect your relationship, he says, I better put this in nor anything else in all creation. I love that cause that, that like covers any other argument someone might [yeah.] might bring up. Ajai 00:28:16 So that means not confessing our sins cannot separate us from the love of God. Mark 00:28:23 Yeah. That falls under anything else <laugh> [yeah.] in all of creation. So, so, let's let's con why don't you conclude this for us Ajai. Ajai 00:28:32 Yeah. So, you know, one other point, you know, I just want to make is, you know, this kind of, theology right also kind of goes against the testimony of the Holy Spirit in Hebrew chapter, 10 again, from verse 14, it says, you know, “by one offering He has perfected forever them that are sanctified” and it goes on to say “where for, where of the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us for after that, he has said before, this is a covenant that I'll make with them after those days says the Lord I'll put my laws in their hearts and their minds I will write them”. And after saying that the scripture says “their sins and lawless deeds, I will remember no more” and “now where the remission of is there is no more offering for sin”. So the Bible clearly says, you know, where the remission of sins is there's no more offering, so this confession is also a form of offering, you know, we are bringing and saying, you know, God forgive me not because of Christ's finished work, but also because of my confession. But the Holy Spirit clearly says that in a way the remission of these is there's no more offering for sin and one other thing is, you know, among the believers, we seem to think, you know, whenever we are convicted of sin, we think that the Holy Spirit is doing that. In fact, it's not the Holy Spirit, that's convicting us, but it's actually our own conscience. When we sin, you know, our conscience is given to convict us of our sins. But you know, in fact, the Holy Spirit is not convicting believers of our sins, but of our righteousness. If you go to John chapter 16 and well say, it says, you know, “when He's come” (Lord Jesus talking about the Holy Spirit is saying), “when He's come He will reprove (the world) of sin and of righteousness and of judgment of sin because they believe not on Me and of righteousness because I go to my Father and you see me no more”. So here, clearly, it's saying that, you know, He will convict the believers because He is referring to believers. You see me no more. And he will convict us, not of our, sin, but of our righteousness and this is actually, you know, further confirmed by the scriptures that we just read. Holy Spirit himself, testifying, that I will remember your sin no more and for God to tell us, I will remember your sin no more and then turn around and convict us of our sin, it makes no sense, that makes God a liar. So, either God has forgotten our sins, or He's reminding us of our sin, you can't say both things, but the Bible clearly says, I will remember your sin no more, so the only thing that God has to convict us of His righteousness, so He is convicting us of our righteousness constantly. Even when we sin the Holy Spirit, telling us, “Hey, that sin is washed away by the blood of Lord Jesus Christ and you're still righteous in my eyes. You know, when we understand this, and then when we change our minds regarding this, right, that's a whole way of responding to sin. You know, when we sin, we are so thankful and we are able to get up immediately and walk again with the Lord without having to go through this ritual of confessing and then going out of fellowship and coming back in fellowship, we don't have to do all or any of that, we simply recognize a finished work of Lord Jesus Christ and we simply thank God and then walk in the newness of life even, you know, when we sin, knowing that, you know, the blood of Christ is continually cleansing us. So, I would like to say, you know, yeah, go ahead, Mark. If we're going, no, Mark 00:32:28 Finish your thought, finish your thought. Yeah, go Ajai 00:32:29 No, I was going to move on to like, you know, the next topic, but if you have anything to, oh, Mark 00:32:33 Okay. Yeah. Let me, let me comment on one word that I think is really a rubber, where the rubber hits the road word, and you said, that's not God or Christ, it's not the Holy Spirit who's convicting of sin, ourselves of sin, it's our consciences and that's why so many Christians walk around with heavy loads of guilt and condemnation. Those aren't from God, they're not from Christ, they're not from the Holy Spirit in you, that's your conscience and, and that's why I love the scripture and here Hebrews 9, “He says how much more then will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God cleanse our consciences from the acts that lead to death Christ.” Hasn't just cleansed us from, from, from the what's the word, reaping what we've sown, as far as sin, He's cleansed our consciences. His desire is for our consciousness to be clean. The only way they're not clean is if we keep convicting ourselves and that's something that you know, I think we've all three shared before that we spent many years as Christians walking around with our own self-inflicted condemnation and, and guilt, which is a terrible way to live. It's just a, it's, it's really bad. It's really bad. And that's, that's why we're so thankful for the message of God's grace, the one true gospel that it came into our lives and took away that burden of slavery as Paul would call it. Ajai 00:34:08 Yeah, we talked about it before as well, but you know, when we feel guilty after sin, we have a tendency to repeat the sin. So, it's so important to, for our conscience to be clenched off that guilty conscience. You know, when we understand that, you know, God is not holding our sin against us, you know, our conscience is also, you know, cleansed. And when we have a clean conscience, right, you know, we are actually, our tendency to repeat the sin goes down there's power and not sin again, you know, let's that our believers misunderstand that, you know, we are telling people to go and sin all the truth that we are talking about, in fact, empower you not to sin. Mark 00:34:50 Absolutely. And that that's such a key point you made because those that are afraid to come into the light of the true gospel, which scripture over and over and over again, tells us is the message of God's grace. And I could spend another hour just giving you scriptures that back that up, which I won't <laugh> I'm getting a big head shake from Tim <laugh>, but, but, it's just so key that people understand that the one true gospel, the glorious gospel of the grace of the Lord, Jesus Christ, that we've seen perfectly in the cross and in the resurrection that does not lead to sin. That's another slap in the face of Christ to say that his perfect gospel, the gospel of God, leads to liecensciousness, license to sin, absolutely 180 degrees wrong. That leads to transformation and love leads to us being, becoming children of God and just walking in the riches of His glorious inheritance. So that's not even an argument that anybody should worry about. Tim 00:36:01 So I think we've done a really good job of taking these three verses and explaining what we used to believe and why we don't believe that anymore in the way that we did. So that leads to a really big question. This is a, this is a set of verses that has caused issues, caused argument caused towards decisive divisiveness. It is not terribly clear on the surface. Why would, why would he write this? Why would John write this in the first place? If it's not the way we think it's supposed to be, Mark 00:36:40 That's really the question that's at the crux of this whole discussion. So Mark, all right, We, we you've, you guys have really laid out a good argument, scripturally and logically why this can't be true. Then why? If, if, the Bible is the inerrant word of God, why would John say something so wrong? And, I'll explain it by saying that, famed theologian, RC Sproul recently I heard him teaching. And he said that when you're reading scripture, you always hold up what you're reading to three questions; one is who's writing this; two, who's it being written to; and three, what is their purpose on what occasion did they write this? When you do that, and you get that to that second question, who's it being written to the clouds part, and you understand. It's because this is not being written to believers. Now the key is context as always, the scripture that, that Tim read for us. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and purify us from all righteousness”. You've got to look before and after, so here's what it says starting at 1 John, 1:5, it says, this is the message we have heard from Him and declare to you. So, first of all, what was the message they heard from Christ? It's the gospel that he came to die for people, so he's giving a message here to people that need to hear this message. Do believers, need to hear this message? They've already heard the message and have put their faith in Christ. And here's the message he says, “we declare to you God is light, in Him, there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and, and the blood of Jesus, His son purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves. And the truth is not in us. If we claim we have not sin, we make Him out to be a liar. And His word is not in us.” It is absolutely clear from John's language that he is speaking to unbelievers and look at the, some of the, the adjectives and adverbs he uses. He says, people who walk in darkness, who lie, who do not have the truth in them nor live it out. People who claim to be without sin. People who deceive themselves, make God out to be a liar and do not have His word. Those aren't that that's, that's not a good description of believers of those that have put their faith in Christ, darkness and light life and death lies and truth. Those are all opposites of having faith in Christ or rejection of Christ, so it's very, very clear from the language that John here is writing to unbelievers and scripture's clear that before we come to the realization that we need a savior, we need to understand that we need a savior that we have not perfectly upheld the law, nor can we do it and that we have sin. We, if we don't acknowledge that we're not gonna acknowledge our need for a savior, and we're going to stay on our own belief. Ajai 00:40:02 Yeah, Mark, you know, you already mentioned this in one of your objectives, but, I think it's worth calling out again in, John chapter 1 verse sorry, 1 John 1:10 says, ”if we claim we have not sin, we make Him out to be a liar”, so, none of the believers ever say I have not sin, right? So it's clear that it is talking about unbelievers. And to further prove that, right, if you go to chapter 2, then the, his salutation and his tone, everything totally changes, he starts off with “my dear children”, right, “I write to you so that you will not sin, but if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ, the righteous One. He is our atoning sacrifice for us. Since, you know, just after two more verse, right? When addressing believers, he says the same thing my dear your children. I tell you not to sin, but if you sin, Hey, I just told you, you confess and get forgiveness. He's not saying that he's saying that if you sin, we have an advocate with the Father, you know, just, we talked about right. You know, you look to Lord Jesus Christ, right? He's advocate. And he's a righteous one. And as He is, so are we in this world? That's how the Bible says. So when you sin, you look at the Lord, Jesus Christ and his finished work and understand that, you know, that's sin is already forgiven and that sin is already attoned for, and he's the prop appreciation the perfect satisfaction to God, the father, and as he's righteous, we are also righteous. And Romans 5:17 says, right, you know, “through the gift of righteousness, we reign in life” so when we understand that, you know, Lord is not imputing sin to us and even when we sin, we are the righteousness of God in Christ, we will actually reign in life. Tim 00:42:02 So it really pulls up again that as Christians, God doesn't hold us accountable for the things that we do wrong because we are still going to do some things wrong, but it's no longer condemning us. And that's, I I'd rather much, I'd much rather be called, dear children than not have the truth in me. <laugh> so, Mark 00:42:25 [Yeah.] Can I just had one, one final thing here? Let's just say someone's out there now. And they're like, you know what, I'm not, I don't know if I buy yet that the whole explanation of this is that John was speaking to unbelievers, not believers. Well, even if you, if, if you take that argument out and you look at all the scriptures we've brought and you don't know what the answer, why Jim John wrote that is, you still are just have to be blown away by the preponderance of the evidence and we just only brought a handful of scriptures. If we wanted to, as I mentioned before, there are hundreds of scriptures that show that what John was saying, can't be true for believers. So just keep that in mind. Tim 00:43:12 And that's why I would encourage every listener to make sure they have their own Bible. You can, if you can hear us, you're obviously able to get online, there are dozens of resources online where you can read scripture directly if you don't have a paper copy. Test, test what we're saying, go look for yourself, find a concordance and you know, work around, nibble around the edges of the words that we've used. Make sure that you're not just listening to somebody, whether that's us or this preacher or that preacher or whomever. But listen to God, listen to the word directly yourself and I think that you will find over time that, you are going to find answers that way and I would hope that they jive with ours and if not, oh, we always encourage you to communicate with us. If you think that something we've said, isn't quite exactly right, or you have questions or disagreements, we would appreciate your contacting us. You can get our contact information in the, at the end of this, podcast in the outro and, we encourage it and we'd love to hear from you. Guys, thank you very much for a wonderful night. This has been a great discussion. I've enjoyed this tremendously. Mark 00:44:28 I have too, Tim. Thank you. Tim 00:44:30 All right. Till the next time …